The Signet Podcast – Jason Pomerantz Transcript

In this episode, Eduardo Signet speaks with Denver commercial real estate broker, landlord, and investor Stuart Zall, founder of The Zall Company.

The conversation explores how relationships, tenant selection, networking, mentorship, long-term ownership, and neighborhood-building shape success in commercial real estate. Stuart shares lessons from his career in retail leasing, property ownership, Denver development, international projects, and the practical realities of working with landlords, tenants, brokers, contractors, and emerging brands.

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Podcast transcript

SIGNET: Stuart, thank you for coming. I have so much to ask you. I want to introduce you as the broker and landlord in the Denver market, although you do brokerage and properties everywhere, including a deal in China. You have quite a lot of experience. Do you want to say a little bit about yourself or introduce yourself?

STUART ZALL:

I am Stuart Zall, founder of The Zall Company, which I founded in 2000.
I did not grow up expecting to go into real estate, and I did not come from a multigenerational real estate family.
I studied accounting at the University of Denver, got my CPA, and started at Arthur Andersen, but I lasted only about a year.
I moved into real estate almost by accident after helping Steve Gettleman with accounting on a strip center, then being asked to help lease it by calling people from the phone book.
I learned by u201cdialing for dollars,u201d got results, and eventually moved through Lakeside Mall, Taubman, and outlet-mall projects around the country.
Taubman taught me the art of leasing, merchandising, and building tenant relationships across multiple markets.
In 2000, when my firm was bought, I chose to start my own business instead of moving, and the business grew from hired-gun leasing work into a brokerage company.
Along the way, I started buying properties when opportunities came up, often through partnerships, because I believe successful brokers should have some investment exposure to commercial real estate.
I eventually bought the Larimer building where we are now, partly because I needed space for my own company and could lease the rest to another tenant.
Having a storefront and a sign on the street has changed the business because people now drive by, see the company, and call.

SIGNET: It is so interesting. I love this area. I have been here a few times and have been to the restaurants. I did not realize everything was right on this block, like Barcelona, Federales, and other places. It is a cool part of town. How did you know this was going to become that?

STUART ZALL:

Sometimes you get lucky.
A friend from New York, Stephanie Rubenstein, was representing a concept connected to the founder of Lululemon, and they wanted a gritty part of town for a millennial worker-focused concept.
At that time, Larimer Street was very rough; Denver Central Market was not open, and there was very little there besides Ratio Brewery.
My friend saw something in the area that reminded her of Brooklyn, and I trusted her perspective even though I did not fully see it myself at first.
I made it a quest to find a building in that area, and we got what I believe is one of the best blocks on Larimer Street in RiNo.
When I bought the building, I was nervous enough that I did not tell my wife exactly where it was at first.
The area still has city challenges, but the building has worked out extremely well.
My advice is not to overanalyze real estate; sometimes you have to find it, take the risk, and let time work for you.
Real estate is scary because you are putting a lot at risk, but time can become your best friend if you take the chance.

SIGNET: You hit on so many points I want to talk about. Mentorship is one. First, can you talk about your mentors and the values you learned in your training with Taubman? You have also been a mentor for me in Denver, and I have met many people you have mentored who became incredibly successful. What qualities do you look for in people that lead them to success?

STUART ZALL:

I think it starts with heart.
If you have passion for what you do, then it does not feel like work.
You need drive, passion, and the ability to dream.
I think younger people are missing face-to-face communication because so much is done through texting, Instagram, and efficient digital communication.
When I started, even sending someone a picture of a space took days, and that slower process created dialogue and relationship-building.
Today, information can be sent instantly, but the relationship process can be lost.
Networking begins with meeting people and building relationships.
I try to create platforms, such as breakfasts, where people can meet others who may help advance their careers.
If you want to make deals, you need to put yourself where decision-makers are, such as shopping-center conventions and industry events.
You should not only spend time with people you already know; you should try to meet as many people as possible and then follow through.
Many deals begin with a cup of coffee, a handshake, or simply bumping into someone.

SIGNET: I love the idea of networking outside your own category. Developers often network with developers, and brokers often network with brokers. I have looked at finance events and capital groups because you get exposure to different people and make different links. One thing I have heard you say is that you never know where a deal is going to come from, and it is about being there. Is that one of the ideas?

STUART ZALL:

I learned something from doing business in China: if you are in a room where everyone speaks English, you are less valuable, but if you are the one person who speaks a language no one else speaks, you become extremely valuable.
I apply that metaphor to real estate networking.
If I am in a room full of brokers, everyone already understands leasing, so I am less differentiated.
If I am in a room where no one understands what I do, then I may be able to provide something valuable.
I like working with contractors, architects, finance people, and others connected to real estate but not doing the exact same thing.
I see networking as collaboration, where different people can benefit from different parts of the same opportunity.
I try to pay it forward by connecting general contractors or other professionals with people who may help them, without keeping a strict scorecard.
Those relationships often come back in useful ways, even if not immediately.
Mentoring people is not just telling them what to do; it is encouraging them to go out, network, socialize, talk to people, and learn from events.
As an example, I paid to meet Danny Meyer at an event, got a signed book, introduced myself, and created a connection that later became useful.
You cannot build those kinds of connections if you only sit in the audience; sometimes you need to go to the front and introduce yourself.

SIGNET: You talked about win-win situations. One thing you have said before, and I have seen you do, is that you want your tenants, your clients, and the people you represent to win. You have said that after the lease is signed and the commission is done, that is when you start to work by helping promote them, because if they expand, they are going to call you. What do you do after the lease is signed, since they still have so much to do?

STUART ZALL:

You can go too far and become your clientu2019s outsourced administrative staff, so you should not go looking for trouble.
It is still important to check in and help when there are problems.
I try to guide clients toward good people, such as reliable liquor-license attorneys, contractors, or other professionals.
I prefer to give clients two or three strong referrals rather than just one, so they can do their own homework and choose.
My role is to point them toward people who are tried and true, not to make every decision for them.
Most of the help is needed between signing the lease and opening the store.
After opening, I cannot solve every operational problem, such as labor or marketing, but I can pick up the phone and be available.
Signing a lease can be a multimillion-dollar commitment, so I want the tenant to succeed.
I once helped a restaurant franchisee renegotiate terms and work through problems even though I technically represented the landlord.
A lot of salespeople disappear after they get paid, but we want continuity, repeat business, and clients who know we tried to help.
At the core, I see our work as solving problems.

SIGNET: I love the way your brain thinks. You are very creative. Taking a wider-angle point of view, why commercial versus residential? I love commercial, but I am curious why you chose that path.

STUART ZALL:

Triple-net leases are a major reason.
I had experience with residential early on, including buying condos during a period when banks wanted properties off their books.
At one point, I had about 50 condos with a partner.
Residential was more management-intensive, especially before todayu2019s technology made banking and administration easier.
I do not have the patience for residential.
Commercial is more interesting to me because I am fascinated by businesses, retail, and how those businesses operate.
I moved most of my residential holdings into commercial projects over time.
In commercial, if a store does not work out for an operator with many stores, it is usually not as emotionally catastrophic as something going wrong with someoneu2019s home.
Residential deals involve peopleu2019s shelter and can be more personal and stressful.

SIGNET: In commercial real estate, what trends are you looking out for? We have tariffs, the internet has been affecting retail for a while, and there are other forces in the market.

STUART ZALL:

People have probably been worrying about the future of retail and commerce since ancient times.
Humans will always need commerce in one form or another.
There will be AI, headwinds, and other changes, and the key is to keep pivoting.
If you sit back and do nothing, you are going to be dead.
COVID was a major test for restaurants, and the smart operators quickly moved into patio seating, takeout, and alcohol-to-go where allowed.
Apparel is changing because so much can be bought online, but people still shop when traveling or looking for experiences.
Food still has to be made somewhere, even if DoorDash or another service delivers it.
I think ghost kitchens have mostly been a bust because people still need to see, experience, and trust a restaurant.
Food, entertainment, and apparel will remain, but models may change, stores may get smaller, and department stores need to reinvent themselves.

SIGNET: I am loving these public markets you see everywhere. I drove up and down the coast, and places like San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara have public markets. Here there is The Hangar and Edgewater. I love those developments because they have synergy together if they are done well. Colorado Mills may have been an example of that 15 or 20 years ago.

STUART ZALL:

Denver is often a poster child for jumping on trends harder than other cities.
We probably overdid the public market and food hall concept.
Some public markets and food halls are winners, but others do not work.
It is not enough to build a food hall and assume people will show up.
You still have to put real thought into the concept, location, tenant mix, and execution.
Denver Central Market and Edgewater are strong examples.
Some others have gone out of business, which shows the model is not automatically successful.
If the concept is done right, it can work very well.

SIGNET: Your company has come such a long way. I think it is incredible that you started as an accountant, which uses a certain type of brain, and then went into such a relationship-heavy business. What qualities did you bring from accounting into your current work?

STUART ZALL:

I can understand financial statements, accounts receivable, and the basic mechanics of a business.
That is valuable because many brokers do not really understand the business side.
I understand operating properties and mortgages.
At the same time, I outsource almost everything that is not one of my strengths.
I use an outsourced bookkeeper and outsourced graphic arts help.
I know I need to work within my strengths.
Running numbers and detailed accounting work are not where I perform best now, even though the background helps.

SIGNET: I have a personal question that I think applies well to the podcast. Hiring people and managing people is really a talent. There is a reason CEOs sometimes manage managers, and managers manage individuals. How do you develop the skills needed to manage people? If you do not do that right, your business suffers and you reach dead ends.

STUART ZALL:

Managing people is a real challenge.
I believe there may be some force or timing that helps you find what you need when you need it.
About a year ago, I hit a wall because sales were down and I was struggling to motivate the team.
Our leasing meetings were not productive, and people, including me, were distracted.
I realized I needed a coach.
I met Steve Benoit from Crafted Consultants through my son and later sat down with him for coffee.
Steve explained a structured process for working with people, and I decided to try it even though it was not cheap.
He has become a meaningful part of the team.
We now have mandatory Monday meetings, with no cell phones, where each agent reviews what they said they would do and whether they got it done.
We also have one-on-one status updates and KPIs.
One KPI is getting one positive Google review per month from each person, which helps the company cast a wider net.
We now track deals by quarter instead of just doing deals without tracking them.
The coaching and structure have been important to our growth.

SIGNET: I asked that because I am managing a construction project in Pebble Beach right now, and you manage subs and contractors. Many people I have interviewed say their success is due to the people they hire. A lot of it is finding the right people with drive, quality, and pride in workmanship. It is hard to find those people because everyone wants to present themselves that way, but not everyone is that person.

STUART ZALL:

A lot of hiring is trial and error.
We now have an onboarding sheet and an interview sheet that lists what we are looking for.
You can also overanalyze hiring.
Right now, we are at capacity and do not have room for more people unless we build up or expand.
I am willing to take a chance on a lot of people.
Many people in the industry probably got their start with me.
In the past, I may not have had the tools to mentor and coach people properly, so I probably lost some talented people.
If you love what you do, it is not work.
I work in some form seven days a week because I am always available and always thinking about how brokers can be more productive.
I do not only think about their productivity in terms of my own income; I want them to succeed.
People are giving me their time and part of their lives, especially when they are young.
Even if someone only stays with me for a year, two years, or three years, I want them to leave with skills that help them succeed elsewhere.
At Arthur Andersen, many good accountants eventually went to work for clients, and the firm saw that as creating a friend at that company.
I see former employees similarly: if they leave and succeed, the relationship may help both of us later.
I do not expect anyone to give me their entire life, but I want their time with us to be productive.

SIGNET: You said you are at capacity. Where do you want to go from here? What is really good now, and what do you want your legacy to be? That is a two-for-one question, but they are different intentions.

STUART ZALL:

I am having a lot of fun and enjoying what is happening.
We are working on projects with the Orlando Magic, which has been very cool.
I have partners outside my company, including Dan Nelson and Neil Berkowitz, who help expand our bandwidth.
I like the arena and sports district space and see it as an area for future growth.
Many arenas are moving back into central business districts, which creates opportunities around live music, sports, restaurants, retail, and event traffic.
Time is precious for people, so projects that combine sports, entertainment, food, and retail can create strong commercial environments.
We do a lot of leasing downtown, in RiNo, and in Cherry Creek, and I want us to continue being a leader in those markets.
Downtown Denver still has a lot of opportunity, despite lingering perceptions from COVID, crime, and 16th Street Mall disruption.
When you lease space and bring in a store or restaurant, you can change a neighborhood for better or worse.
A lease such as Mendocino Farms in Cherry Creek changes the everyday experience of a neighborhood by adding a useful commerce point.
My legacy is not about ego; it is about improving the city or the commercial playground I work in.
Early in my career, I was focused on getting paid, but over time I came to care more about the type of tenant and whether they improve the neighborhood.
A street full of banks may pay rent, but it does not create the same neighborhood energy as coffee shops, restaurants, and places to shop.
The goal is to help create neighborhoods where people feel commerce, culture, and activity.

SIGNET: The tenants really give a neighborhood its feel u2014 the restaurants, bars, and different spots.

STUART ZALL:

The right tenant mix creates a good environment.
When neighborhoods improve through thoughtful retail and restaurant leasing, everyone benefits.

SIGNET: I was listening to another interview you did, and you said 2010 was a hard year after the Great Recession. How did you survive that, and what advice would you give to other people in future recessions?

STUART ZALL:

Praying is real.
If you have your health, you should not let your stock account or money account consume you.
Do not listen to all the background noise.
I do not watch much news because it can become distracting and negative.
In our business, the recession showed up late because commissions often take six months to a year to come in.
2009 was still fine, but in 2010 nothing was coming in.
I tried to get exposure by writing articles and appearing in trade magazines.
A partner and I wrote an article about repositioning malls, and someone from China called asking whether we could do that work there.
Our default answer was yes, even when we had to figure out how to execute afterward.
We needed demographic and psychographic data in China, which was difficult to get, but a colleague connected us with someone who did data work in Asia and had gone to the University of Denver.
We partnered with him, created a merchandising plan, and the client then asked whether we could lease the project.
The project was in Xiu2019an, which was connected to the Terracotta Warriors and the Silk Road.
I used my U.S. relationships with brands to find the right international contacts and started leasing the project.
I worked between China and Denver, using a Wi-Fi phone line with a Denver number so clients did not know I was overseas.
The project was ultimately scrapped because housing became more lucrative for the developer, but we had been paid in advance.
By the time that project ended, the U.S. economy had improved.
That experience helped us survive and led to work in places such as Puerto Rico and Hawaii.

SIGNET: I do residential in Europe, but it is interesting because that is another market. Even here, RiNo and Cherry Creek feel like different markets because the tenants are different. You deal with a lot of high-end, popular, and trendy tenants.

STUART ZALL:

I would not call most of our work true luxury, like Gucci or Hermu00e8s, because Denver is not a very luxury-heavy market.
We work more with upper-moderate and emerging brands.
That includes brands like Lululemon, North Face, Birkenstock, and other better brands.
I also love working with immigrants because many of them are fearless.
Some people create businesses because they may not have the same access to conventional jobs, and they are willing to take chances.
Those chances sometimes turn into great businesses.
I have worked with clients from one store to very large store counts, and it is rewarding to watch a brand grow.
It is interesting and fun to see a person or brand evolve from one location into something much larger.

SIGNET: That is part of their story. I think you did that with H&M, where you had the first one in Colorado.

STUART ZALL:

We did the first H&M in Colorado.
H&M has withstood the stress of downtown.
We also brought Uniqlo to downtown Denver, although it unfortunately closed during COVID.
Forever 21 was another example.
No brand lasts forever, but if you can get 15 years or more out of a brand, that can still be meaningful.

SIGNET: Thinking about the 16th Street Mall, coming from Los Angeles, what is the secret? In LA, it is very hard to turn around cities, maybe because of bureaucracy or something else. Here, you have the Downtown Denver Partnership and developers working with political bodies. What is the secret to turning around a place like that?

STUART ZALL:

Comparing Los Angeles and Denver is difficult because Los Angeles County is massive and harder to move.
Denver is smaller and more nimble.
Denver has a lot of downtown history.
Union Station was critical to Denveru2019s growth and connects directly to the 16th Street Mall.
The redevelopment of Union Station was a beautiful project.
Historically, the railroad helped Denver grow because the rail route came through Denver instead of elsewhere.
Larimer Street and downtown Denver developed around rail traffic, travelers, and the commerce they needed.
Denver has historic assets, including Larimer Square and older buildings, that give it a character beyond steel, brick, and glass.
The city has serious struggles, including high minimum wages and permitting timelines, but there are good people who believe in downtown.
With the 16th Street Mall work completed or nearing completion, I expect to see more positive activity in the next couple of years.

SIGNET: It is a great area. I lived near Union Station and would jog through 16th Street. That area has completely changed, with Whole Foods, the train, and a safer environment.

STUART ZALL:

During COVID, Denver dropped its guard and got hit on multiple levels.
The trend is now improving.
Some older office buildings may be converted to residential if conversion is feasible.
There is still a need for housing, even if apartment rents are currently soft.
I expect the need for apartments to continue as the city grows.

SIGNET: Prices have come up a lot since then too.

STUART ZALL:

Prices have come up, and interest rates are another obstacle.
Every generation has something that gets in the way.
I often hear people say something is too expensive and that they will wait for prices to come down.
In the long run, saving a relatively small amount on price may matter less when amortized over decades.

SIGNET: I once heard that it is not timing the market, it is time in the market. It is the same principle.

STUART ZALL:

Jordan Perlmutter once told me that some real estate projects succeed because of timing.
Even if you do not time it perfectly, real estate is a long game.
It is like golf: people focus on individual shots, but real estate has waves.
There are periods when you can make a lot of money quickly, but overall you need a long-term view.
If you take the long view, you have a better chance of being successful.

SIGNET: It seems like that is also what you do with your investments. Originally, the name of this podcast was u201cThe Long-Term Real Estate Investor,u201d because thinking long term removes some of the pressure around things like IRR calculations. If you have a 100-year business plan, it changes the mentality. I feel that in your investing and leasing, it is always long term, and there are also a lot of transaction costs in trying to flip.

STUART ZALL:

In commercial real estate, long-term thinking is important.
Because I did not come from a real estate family, I had to start by planting seeds myself.
It would have been nice to walk into an existing forest, but I had to begin building it over time.

SIGNET: It is tricky too, because when you are starting out, how are you going to buy something without financing? A lot of times the long-term plan is to get rid of financing so you have more stability and the bumps in the road are not as dramatic. Let me ask you the wrap-up questions. What was the number-one deal that changed your career, taught you the most, or had the most impact on you?

STUART ZALL:

The most important turning point was not really a deal; it was going to work for the Taubman Company.
That job was transformational because it taught me how to lease not just to fill space, but to create neighborhoods.
When I was about 27, I met a friend at a restaurant called Fresh Choice, saw a huge line, and asked about the owner.
I had just taken a job involving two malls, and within about 30 days I made two deals with that restaurant operator.
That happened because I asked a question when the opportunity was right in front of me.
Sometimes you are on the one-yard line and only need to ask the question.
Over my career, I did several deals with that operator, so that became an important relationship and an important early lesson.

SIGNET: What are your three key daily habits that have made you successful? I am always curious what time people wake up, whether they meditate, read a certain newspaper, or spend family time.

STUART ZALL:

I do not read a newspaper.
I get up early, usually around five.
My most productive time is between about five and eight in the morning.
I try to filter out negative noise because there is always a lot of it.
I would tell people not to listen to all the noise that is designed to stop them.
I try to stay positive.
I meditate for about ten minutes almost every day.
I use paper and pencil to write things down, even with all the CRMs and technology available.
I try to be thankful.
I remind myself that there are many opportunities available and that people do not need to stay stuck.
I try to wake up with a smile and a mindset of taking on the world, even if some days are harder by the end.

SIGNET: Final question: what would you say to a young individual who wanted to start in the real estate business? They might not know whether they want to be a broker, investor, or what segment to focus on. How would they find their path?

STUART ZALL:

I would tell them not to be afraid.
If they need to live at their parentsu2019 house or drive Uber while getting started, they should do what they need to do.
They should absorb as much information as possible.
There is so much information available now that they do not even have to subscribe to everything to learn.
They should become an expert at something and become the go-to person in that area.
They should not try to do everything.
They should find one area and try to be the best at it.
They need passion for the business.
If they think of it only as a job, they are in the wrong business.
It is always a good time to get into real estate, and bad times can actually be the best times to start.

SIGNET: Stuart, thank you so much. We could do round two another time. Thank you for joining the podcast, and hopefully we will grab dinner soon.

STUART ZALL:

I hope so.

INTERVIEWER u2014 SPEAKER UNCERTAIN: Bonus question: what are your thoughts about the new Burnham Yard deal and what it is going to do for downtown?

STUART ZALL:

I do not know exactly how it will affect downtown, but I think it will be very positive for Burnham Yard.
Burnham Yard feels like one of the last major pieces of Denver that has not really been developed.
A key question is what happens to the area where the stadium is now if activity shifts.
I think the project will not hurt downtown because people will still come downtown, and the distance may not be dramatically different.
Large investments, such as a multibillion-dollar stadium, create a multiplier effect that benefits many people.
I do worry about displacement, especially for people who currently live nearby and may have cheaper rent.
Growth can be positive, but people still need places to live.
Denver has done some work around affordable housing, but development can still affect neighborhoods.
I think developers and stakeholders need to think carefully about who is affected.
Overall, I think the project is good, but I hope there is thoughtful attention to housing and displacement.

00:00:40:08 – 00:01:04:23
Speaker 1
Jason, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast. I’ve wanted to do this podcast because for me, I’ve told you it’s something I really want to learn more in depth. And I think that insurance, property insurance specifically is one of the more overlooked things in real estate. But sort of before we get into a lot of my questions, why don’t you introduce who you are and what you specialize in?

00:01:05:00 – 00:01:25:20
Speaker 1
Okay. Well, first of all, Eduardo, thanks for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this too. And, you know, we’ve definitely talked about it a long time. So it’s just a pleasure to sit down with you and happy to take this time. So thank you. So my name is Jason Pomerantz. As you know, I am what you call a retail insurance producer.

00:01:25:22 – 00:01:56:13
Speaker 1
So that’s a fancy name for, for essentially insurance sales. And so, you know, I kind of would categorize myself and kind of like a highly consultative sales model. I work, you know, almost entirely in the commercial realm. I work with real estate developers, property owners, you know, portfolio owners, general contractors. So anything real estate and construction related, I do go outside of that realm as well.

00:01:56:15 – 00:02:22:22
Speaker 1
I have a general counsel practice where I work with general counsel from all industries, kind of in the middle market range, which depending how you want to define that. But public companies, private companies, etc. and so uninsured on insurance. And so again, it’s highly consultative really. We’re an extension. We behave as an extension of their risk management department if they have one.

00:02:22:22 – 00:03:08:03
Speaker 1
If they don’t have one, we are the risk management department. And so, you know, I’m fortunate enough to work in a fairly large organization, at least by Colorado standards, you know, about 3000 associates nationwide. And we are nationwide headquartered in Denver. And so we’re able to address every vertical event, every industry, and every type of insurance. And so it’s just so wonderful to have this platform of really talented individuals behind me, you know, especially in areas where I don’t consider myself an expert, which are most areas, but within real estate and construction, you know, I kind of lean in very heavily.

00:03:08:04 – 00:03:29:23
Speaker 4
The one thing that I really admire about you and I really I’m a little bit jealous, I have to say, the people that, you know, they study law, they. And then they go and they don’t they don’t necessarily practice, but they use everything that they learned from their legal background in whatever business they are. Right. How did how did that help you do your work?

00:03:30:01 – 00:03:30:17
Speaker 4
Well.

00:03:30:18 – 00:04:02:12
Speaker 1
You know, I took a strange path to this industry. You know, I was a client. Oh, really? So, yeah. So I practiced law here in Colorado for 22 years. And throughout most of that career, I was a client of several different insurance outfits, but most notably the one in which I said today. And so these are people I’ve known a very long time and came to, to respect and develop friendships.

00:04:02:14 – 00:04:27:08
Speaker 1
And so when I was looking for a change, it was it was kind of a no brainer for me to start that conversation with these people. And so now here we are, four years later, I’m totally immersed in this world. And it’s just been wonderful to get to know those people better. And then a really broader swath of the industry quite a lot better.

00:04:27:08 – 00:04:29:10
Speaker 1
So it’s been it’s been a journey.

00:04:29:11 – 00:04:45:21
Speaker 4
I mean, honestly, whenever we’ve talked insurance, I always feel like I’m in good hands with your advice and your leadership. So it’s always a pleasure to talk to you about, you know, the other things we have in common. But when it comes to insurance, there’s just so much I don’t know that when we talk, it’s you never know what’s happening.

00:04:45:22 – 00:05:08:11
Speaker 4
Also, I think it’s important to note that you’re also broker. Insurance broker. So just to give I guess the audience a little bit of reference. What is real estate insurance like? What types are there and why should they not get it? I think everybody knows they have to get some, but what should they be looking at?

00:05:08:12 – 00:05:27:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, well if you have a lender you have to get it. You have no choice. Which I guess from, from a sales perspective is wonderful. I don’t have to convince you that you ought to buy it. I just have to convince you that that, you know, you ought to buy it from me as opposed to somebody else. And so, you know, the challenge in that is there’s always relationships involved.

00:05:27:08 – 00:05:50:01
Speaker 1
And so if I get hired, that means somebody else gets fired, right? And that’s something, you know, I take very seriously. And it’s it’s sort of the tough part of this business. And that’s a two way street. You know, if somebody else wants to hire their brother in law, that means I get fired, right? And vice versa. And so it’s it’s challenging.

00:05:50:03 – 00:06:16:21
Speaker 1
But the way, the way we win business is really by showing our expertise and really flexing the broad team that we have. And, you know, in whatever vertical we’re in, the team is what shines for me. And, you know, I’m only as good as as our team. And in that case, I’ll take that all day long because we have such good teams in this organization.

00:06:16:21 – 00:06:32:22
Speaker 1
And so it’s it’s just been fun exploring externally but also internally to meet great people and develop these relationships. And, you know, the external relationships with my internal relationships. And that’s really been the reward for me.

00:06:32:23 – 00:06:35:00
Speaker 4
Right? Okay.

00:06:35:02 – 00:06:35:14
Speaker 1
And so.

00:06:35:15 – 00:06:36:00
Speaker 4
I.

00:06:36:00 – 00:07:04:14
Speaker 1
Do yeah. I do want to complete the answer to your question. And what types of insurance are there in the real estate realm? I mean, there’s the major categories are property and casualty. You know, casualty otherwise known as liability. And so, you know, if you’re a property owner, if you own an office building, let’s say a retail building, you need property coverage for the standard perils of fire, water intrusion things, things of that nature that we can all get our arms around.

00:07:04:14 – 00:07:29:22
Speaker 1
Anyone who owns a home knows they have to have homeowner’s insurance, you know, theft, etc. that’s what your property insurance covers. And then conversely, on the casualty or liability side, you know, covering your exposure from third parties, okay. So we talk, you know, I’ll get a little jargon in our conversation just so you can understand how we think about these things.

00:07:29:22 – 00:07:56:02
Speaker 1
But property is what we call first party coverage. Your building burns down. You are the claimant. No other parties involved. That’s first party property coverage versus liability. You know, you invite a friend over or a business guest a business, and it comes over and slips and falls on something. And, you know, you were negligent. You left an, you know, an extension cord out or something like that.

00:07:56:02 – 00:08:11:06
Speaker 1
Somebody trips, falls, gets injured. That is what liability coverage is for. If they were to sue you, you could make a claim on your casualty coverage or liability coverage.

00:08:11:07 – 00:08:30:04
Speaker 4
Okay. So commercial is different from homeowners policies. Yes. So I mean I don’t want to jump too much around, but I do want to ask you because a lot of people, they have homeowner’s insurance and then they rent out their house to somebody else. Why shouldn’t they do that or is that do you see a problem with that?

00:08:30:05 – 00:08:33:19
Speaker 4
Is it a different kind of coverage? Does that now become a commercial?

00:08:33:22 – 00:08:52:03
Speaker 1
Yes. Is the short answer. I mean, you definitely want to talk to your insurance agent if you have, you know, your primary residence and now you want to start renting that out, you know, whether on a short term or a long term basis, you want to make sure that you have the proper coverage for the third party exposures.

00:08:52:03 – 00:09:13:22
Speaker 1
And so I guess the reason behind that is, you know, the carrier underwrote that policy when you bought it as your primary residence. They underwrote it as a primary residence. If all of a sudden now you’re going to turn that into some kind of a business, you know, as an Airbnb, short term rental or long term rental, they need to know about that because the exposure is different.

00:09:13:22 – 00:09:36:23
Speaker 1
They’re going to rate it differently. It’s probably going to cost you a little bit more, right. So that’s definitely a conversation you want to have the, you know, the the thing that you don’t want to happen in the insurance world is that you’re now based on your behavior falling into some exception in that coverage. And so, you know, the exclusionary language can be broad in a lot of these policies.

00:09:36:23 – 00:09:40:18
Speaker 1
And so always consult with your agent. Make sure you have the right coverage.

00:09:40:18 – 00:09:52:04
Speaker 4
I definitely wanted to get into exclusions and inclusions to look for just because, you know, it’s it’s a contract that you’re signing and you’re making a deal with an insurance and you’re buying a protection and a very.

00:09:52:04 – 00:09:53:07
Speaker 1
Complicated contract.

00:09:53:08 – 00:10:10:08
Speaker 4
Yeah, I mean, that’s that’s why, you know, one of the questions was, why do you need a broker? You know, like if people could just find themselves, what is the benefit? And I believe very strongly in having brokers. I use car brokers, I don’t, you know, for cars I use it brokers for insurance, even real estate. I’m a broker.

00:10:10:08 – 00:10:13:01
Speaker 4
I don’t represent myself. I usually have a broker.

00:10:13:03 – 00:10:38:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, you would not enter into a complex legal contract without consulting a lawyer. So likewise, like anything else, I mean, you need an experienced guide to make sure you’re buying the right thing. And so in every single state, insurance agents are licensed. And that’s just the beginning. I wouldn’t make that your criteria that we all have to be licensed.

00:10:38:18 – 00:11:04:00
Speaker 1
You want somebody with, with a certain amount of years of experience. And that is hopefully, at least in part in the area in which you’re considering, you know, real estate is a discipline within the insurance industry. So you want to find someone who’s pretty seasoned in the real estate world. And so, you know, with the larger company, you know, we have the luxury of all our different teams and our specialty practices.

00:11:04:00 – 00:11:26:13
Speaker 1
And so, you know, if you were to come to me, whatever the need you had would be able to tap the right people internally and bring that expertise to the table. And so, you know, with a smaller agency, people tend to be a bit broader. And for basic property risks and things like that, that’s fine. As we get into more complex commercial risk.

00:11:26:13 – 00:11:54:09
Speaker 1
Maybe not. It just depends on the situation and I’ll contradict myself. I mean, there are some, you know, niche brokers that focus exclusively on, say, construction. And those folks tend to be fairly sophisticated and you would be in good hands, but, you know, always check references, you know, look and do your diligence on on who you’re, you know, visiting with for any kind of insurance brokerage.

00:11:54:10 – 00:11:58:09
Speaker 4
What are you looking for when you do diligence.

00:11:58:11 – 00:12:42:03
Speaker 1
Years of experience. You know, perhaps some references from from people that are similar enough to you. Ideally someone who’s maybe more sophisticated or larger than you in terms of of their real estate holdings. Yeah, it might might be somewhere you want to start. Someone who’s been in in the business a long time, and then you ask that person who they use and who they might recommend, and then go talk to them and see if there’s a connection, see if you know, what I would suggest is a telltale sign is see if they’re interested in your business and learning more about your business and your concerns and your plans into the future, as opposed to just

00:12:42:03 – 00:12:48:17
Speaker 1
simply having you fill out an application and trying to create a transaction immediately.

00:12:48:18 – 00:12:50:00
Speaker 4
Okay.

00:12:50:02 – 00:13:01:22
Speaker 1
You know, the transaction is a necessary consequence, but we want to have sort of an in-depth understanding of your business first. That’s my opinion. Yeah. That’s how I like to do business.

00:13:01:23 – 00:13:21:20
Speaker 4
I mean, not to get into trends yet because I do have some questions about that. But I feel like also having a broker that things are constantly changing in the business, you know, hurricanes are picking up in Florida or there might be more snow in Denver or, you know, there’s love in Hawaii. There’s so many different changes, just natural disasters.

00:13:21:20 – 00:13:51:07
Speaker 4
There’s one category of changes that having an expert as a real estate owner, you can’t possibly keep your eyes open in every field that you need to be, you know, capital raising, financing, insurance, everything. The law is changing. There’s so many things changing that having an expert within the insurance industry and it’s it’s a lot of money. I think if you don’t have the right insurance or you don’t have the coverage, one thing that and I’m going to go back a little bit to what you were talking about, commercial versus liability.

00:13:51:12 – 00:14:09:11
Speaker 4
One thing that confuses me is, is that a different policy then you have what categories are there because you have like losses of rent, you know insurance. You have builders risk insurance, which I don’t know if that’s an add on or a specialty. What categories are there within in in in real estate.

00:14:09:12 – 00:14:31:02
Speaker 1
Right. So I mentioned before that we have, you know, the two broad categories of property and casualty. You know again casualty is otherwise known as liability. And so on the property side, you know, there’s there’s all sorts of sub limits and coverages within that. And depending on the type of policy you buy the loss rents could be part of that.

00:14:31:04 – 00:14:43:04
Speaker 1
You mentioned builders risk. You know, that is a very specific type of property insurance that you would purchase during the construction phase. So that is your property coverage during construction.

00:14:43:07 – 00:14:43:20
Speaker 4
Is okay.

00:14:43:21 – 00:14:57:04
Speaker 1
And then once construction, if you were building from the ground up, let’s say, you know, a new building, you would you would have a builder’s risk policy during construction. Once construction is complete, you would then transition to a permanent property policy.

00:14:57:05 – 00:14:57:16
Speaker 4
Okay.

00:14:57:17 – 00:15:17:05
Speaker 1
So, you know, builder’s risk is its own specialty. There’s people here that that’s all they deal with. And so you know again you know, you mentioned all the different disciplines as a real estate developer or owner that you need to, you know, at least be conversant in. I mean, likewise on on the inside in insurance, the same thing is true.

00:15:17:05 – 00:15:45:08
Speaker 1
It’s gotten so complex and so highly specialized. That’s why we have all these different specialty practice groups that I mentioned. And having that ability to bring in those groups as appropriate. So, you know, I almost become an internal navigator when we have complex clients where they might have a property risk, they might have a directors and officers concern, you know, if it’s a larger company, cyber risk, cyber liability.

00:15:45:09 – 00:16:04:21
Speaker 1
I mean, we have a whole department. That’s all they do. And so, you know, I keep mentioning these two broad categories of property and casualty, but there’s all these other kind of more niche products like cyber liability, for example, that, you know, need to be part of the discussion at a minimum.

00:16:04:21 – 00:16:28:06
Speaker 4
It’s so interesting to me how so many property owners, being from California and having properties there, a lot of people don’t get earthquake insurance. They have all this other coverage and I understand it’s a huge premium and it expires after a year. But what happens if you have an earthquake and your building gets demolished? You know what? What kind of recourse does the landlord have if that happens and they’re not covered?

00:16:28:07 – 00:16:53:10
Speaker 1
Right. Well, I mean, that would be a component of your property coverage. And people in Colorado typically do not buy quake coverage for obvious reasons. But in California, I think you’d be remiss to not spend that money. And so, you know, I encourage people to think about insurance as kind of a risk finance device. I mean, you could assume that risk yourself.

00:16:53:12 – 00:16:53:15
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:16:53:17 – 00:17:15:19
Speaker 1
And, you know, in most years you will have no, no cost. But when that large, you know, catastrophic loss happens, you’re going to wish that you had spread that cost over many years in the form of insurance premiums that didn’t pay you back anything for that one day where, where you absolutely need it.

00:17:15:20 – 00:17:33:20
Speaker 4
I mean, I think that’s key to look at, to look at it that way from that philosophy. It’s. Yeah. Yeah. And I see why you would need a specialty group because they could analyze the I mean, they’re looking at the risk if you might not understand the structural needs of an earthquake in California because that’s not you know, that’s very specific.

00:17:33:21 – 00:17:54:00
Speaker 4
Like was it retrofit, was it, you know, how was it retrofit what materials maybe affect if it was properly retrofitted? So one thing that I’m also personally curious about, just how does the insurance business work? You know, this is more like if you’re a landlord trying to get a policy and you want to look at it, but where does the money come from?

00:17:54:01 – 00:18:01:06
Speaker 4
I mean, I know their insurance companies, but what are they looking for? What kind of is it that they’re looking for? Returns, you know.

00:18:01:08 – 00:18:27:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, they’re in this business, you know, truth be told, to make money. You know, it is a for profit industry in most cases, at least. It’s designed to be, you know, for for a number of years, it was a money losing operation industry wide on the carrier side. And they did not properly forecast all the catastrophic losses they were going to have.

00:18:27:07 – 00:18:57:01
Speaker 1
You know, with the Florida hurricanes, you know, the Western wildfires, etc., you know, floods, you name it. You can imagine quickly in one of these large events, you hear, you know, on the news, you know, these multi-billion dollar losses. I mean, there’s only a handful of companies that are eating the lion’s share of that loss. And so, you know, there was a great slide I saw once that showed a dollar bill kind of cut up to where your premium dollar goes.

00:18:57:03 – 00:19:01:07
Speaker 1
You’d be shocked. A small sliver of that was profit.

00:19:01:09 – 00:19:02:10
Speaker 4
Really. Well, yeah.

00:19:02:11 – 00:19:30:21
Speaker 1
You know, the lion’s share of it is claims. They pay out claims. Believe it or not, most of that premium dollar gets paid out in claims. And so, you know, there’s a concept I learned early on in the insurance industry called the law of large numbers. And so very it’s a very simple concept where, you know, we talked about that risk, the risk finance of that single catastrophic loss that you’re preparing for as an insurance customer.

00:19:30:23 – 00:19:56:02
Speaker 1
If they have enough customers, you know, all the rules of statistics that their their forecast models ought to work. And in most cases they do work, so long as they have sufficient numbers of insureds under their program and if they’ve underwritten properly and excluded the unreasonable expected losses, then everything should work. They will keep their small amount of profit.

00:19:56:02 – 00:20:30:01
Speaker 1
They will pay out the claims, you know, within their expectations and everything works just fine. They win. You win. That’s what we want to happen. And so really, the short answer to how the industry works is the law of large numbers, right. You know, and then when they have retained earnings in the better years, they invest those earnings and earn a return which bolsters, you know, their coffers for when that bad event happens in those major catastrophic years.

00:20:30:04 – 00:20:52:07
Speaker 4
That makes it ten of. So question about I mean, there’s another thing about being an agent, I think, is there a lot of competition? I always see my I love having agents because they’re my gatekeepers, they’re my communication, they’re my presentation to the companies. Is there a lot of competition within the insurance? You know, like at.

00:20:52:07 – 00:20:53:18
Speaker 1
The retail level where I sit?

00:20:53:19 – 00:20:57:10
Speaker 4
Yeah, not not brokers, but like providers.

00:20:57:15 – 00:21:14:08
Speaker 1
On the carrier side in most cases, yes. It depends on the industry. I mean, if you’re talking about, you know, inland, you know, property risk. Sure. There’s there’s tons when you get into coastal and cat areas.

00:21:14:10 – 00:21:15:19
Speaker 4
Which category.

00:21:16:00 – 00:21:41:21
Speaker 1
Catastrophic. You know think Florida okay. Think think coastal Florida, coastal Texas you know Gulf Coast. You know where we have all these these major catastrophic losses there. You know, the carrier the competition has dwindled. I mean, there’s only so many carriers that will play in that arena a bit closer to closer to home. You know, I deal with a lot of multifamily construction.

00:21:41:23 – 00:22:12:08
Speaker 1
And in Colorado, you know, we get to brag about being the number one worst state for construction defect litigation. And so I can count on one hand how many carriers will write the construction insurance policies for condominiums. And, you know, we could spend two hours talking about condo litigation in the US, particularly in Colorado. It’s really bad. You know, we could talk about California with the wildfire risk.

00:22:12:09 – 00:22:38:14
Speaker 1
I mean, you hear, you know, large carriers that have pulled out of that state due to the unacceptable wildfire risk, they just can’t do it anymore. And so every time you lose one of those competitors, you know, the premiums go up. I mean, it’s simple supply and demand, you know, economics. And so it’s there’s a reason why we’ve seen our property rates climbing in double digit numbers for the last 5 or 6 years.

00:22:38:16 – 00:22:58:10
Speaker 1
Luckily this year we’ve we’ve seen some pullback in the property rates which has been welcome. But we’re you know we’re pulling back from you know historic highs. And coming down a little bit. They’re still pretty darn high. So so don’t get me wrong. But that relief is welcome for our property owners.

00:22:58:11 – 00:23:22:08
Speaker 4
Yeah I mean the risk makes sense. There’s a lot of unknowns that are happening. One thing I was mentioning when we were by the elevators that I wanted to tell a little story. It’s not a story. I owned a property. It was vacant. Getting insurance was so difficult for vacant properties that now and then we had vandalism and it only covered theft, not damage or damage, not theft, something like that.

00:23:22:08 – 00:23:37:01
Speaker 4
And we had that. And I remember it was such a hard experience to get compensated. Why is vacant property? It’s something I’m scared of now because vacant property insurance difficult to get insurance. It it.

00:23:37:01 – 00:24:01:07
Speaker 1
Is so I, I oversimplified the industry in talking about the law of large numbers, but it’s also the law of small numbers. They they are record keepers. The insurance industry is better record keepers than our, you know, our governmental entities or anybody else because it’s their, their bottom line that’s on the line.

00:24:01:09 – 00:24:02:06
Speaker 4
Yeah, exactly.

00:24:02:06 – 00:24:27:17
Speaker 1
And so, you know, they’ve got actuaries and data scientists involved looking at risk, you know, past performance as a guide. That’s all we have. Right. And so they look typically look you know at five years in the past sometimes more than that. And they’re looking at you as a as a property owner yourself. You know what kind of loss history.

00:24:27:18 – 00:24:55:14
Speaker 1
Do you have. Are you you know, a you know, a mindful of your properties. They look at the geography, you know, as that particular zip code prone to certain types of claims. And then kind of broadly, what are we seeing trend wise, you know, either in that in that state or across the country. And one thing that is clear to them is that vacant properties see more claims.

00:24:55:14 – 00:25:13:09
Speaker 1
Right? We have we have vandalism risk. We have, you know, leaky pipes that go unnoticed for weeks or months that cause tremendous amounts of damage. And so, you know, vacant properties just are a peculiar kind of risk just because of their nature.

00:25:13:10 – 00:25:31:06
Speaker 4
That makes sense. Yeah. I mean, that answers one of the questions and it’s one of the key questions. What do insurance companies want to see? You know, that’s a big part of it because you want to be insurable and you don’t want you want to you want to prepare for that something you have to underwrite, something you need to think of.

00:25:31:06 – 00:25:52:11
Speaker 4
I really do feel that people are not educated enough on insurance. I think it would help to have insurance or to have a good agent. That explains a lot of these things to you. So a common problem that I’ve heard about, and this happened in one of my properties, was being underinsured. And that probably happens very often because you don’t think of construction costs going up.

00:25:52:12 – 00:26:05:04
Speaker 4
You’re not getting a bit every year to see how much things cost or anything like that. Do you how does that affect a landlord? I mean, when it comes to getting money in return?

00:26:05:05 – 00:26:28:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, when we’re talking about replacement cost, it’s really important that you update, you know, the insured amount for the building pretty regularly. You know, every year might be a little extreme, but I would say at a minimum every two years you want to be looking at that. You know, construction costs. I don’t have to tell you.

00:26:28:23 – 00:26:57:05
Speaker 1
They’ve they’ve been going up dramatically outpacing broader inflation for many years now. And so you don’t want to be caught underinsured. And so you know the industry has has tools. You know the Marshall and Swift guide is a tool that we use where we can say, okay, you have a retail building in a certain zip code, a certain type of masonry construction and a certain type of roof.

00:26:57:05 – 00:27:22:01
Speaker 1
And, you know, we can do some some cowboy math and come up with, you know, within a pretty decent margin of what, you know, replacement cost for different things is going to be on that building. And so but I wouldn’t stop there. I think, you know, especially most of my clients are seasoned, you know, industry professionals. And so we might use those numbers as a tool to start a conversation.

00:27:22:01 – 00:27:43:18
Speaker 1
That’s not the end of the conversation. And so and then we want to talk about, well, what’s, what’s peculiar about this building, what’s irreplaceable, etc., what sort of, you know, onerous things is the the municipality going to impose on us in the event of, you know, that we have to do some reconstruction, you know, and bring things up to code.

00:27:43:19 – 00:27:53:09
Speaker 4
A lot of people talk about an umbrella policy and maybe getting insurance, one policy for all their properties. Why is that a mistake? And is that just not the way to do it?

00:27:53:10 – 00:28:22:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. Let me let me address, you know, the jargon. You know, when you’re including multiple properties under a single insurance policy, you know, that’s a master program. And umbrella, conversely, is sort of a is an excess policy that sits over other policies as your primary. So, for example, let’s say you have a building and you have, you know, a casualty coverage on your building for slip falls.

00:28:22:22 – 00:29:00:01
Speaker 1
You also have an auto policy for some some cars you have for your business, you know, business vehicles, you might buy an umbrella policy that would sit in excess over all of those. So you have $1 million in GL coverage for your building. You have $1 million in auto coverage, and then maybe you have a 5 or $10 million umbrella policy that sits above that for, you know, if one of your employees, God forbid, you know, takes out, you know, a car load of people and, you know, injures or kills them, you know, you would have, you know, millions of dollars in potential claims coming your way.

00:29:00:02 – 00:29:29:18
Speaker 1
That’s the day you wish you had an umbrella policy or some sort of an excess liability policy. So two different categories. So your original question was about master policies covering multiple properties. I’m a fan of that. Once you get above about five substantially sized properties it starts to make sense. Okay. And so most of our clients will buy one off policies until they get to that level.

00:29:29:19 – 00:30:05:02
Speaker 1
And then we can start talking about a master policy where we can think about loss limits. So let’s say I have ten properties, you know, roughly $10 million in insurable value each. So we’ve got $100 million in insurable risk. Do we need to buy $100 million in property coverage? The answer is no. If we can convince your lender to play along, maybe we buy 50 million unless they’re all situated in the same work at the same town, they could all theoretically burn down in the same event, right?

00:30:05:04 – 00:30:27:20
Speaker 1
You know, then you’d probably want to ensure the whole value. But if they’re spread across, you know, a broad enough geography and we have what we call spread of risk, then a master policy with a lower loss limit makes a lot of sense. And so we can kind of lower it from the top end and really bring your premium cost down and still provide fairly robust coverage.

00:30:27:21 – 00:30:28:09
Speaker 4
Right.

00:30:28:11 – 00:30:50:21
Speaker 1
And conversely, you can think about it on the other side, you know, let’s say you’re you’re an established family office property owner, portfolio company, etc., and you’ve got decent cash reserves. Maybe you’re comfortable taking on a little more risk so we can look at higher deductible programs and kind of squeeze it up from the bottom end as well.

00:30:51:02 – 00:31:18:12
Speaker 1
So we’re compressing from the top with a loss limit that I was describing. We can compress it up from the bottom with higher retentions right. AKA deductibles and really save you some money. Yeah. But again it needs to be a very eyes open, consultative discussion between you and your agent. That makes sense. You know, so so you can’t have a surprise on the day you have a claim.

00:31:18:13 – 00:31:27:15
Speaker 1
I mean, there needs to be, you know, a a very kind of open conversation with your agent. And that’s why that relationship really matters.

00:31:27:15 – 00:31:31:13
Speaker 4
It really sounds like you have to be educated to understand what you’re signing. I mean.

00:31:31:14 – 00:31:49:03
Speaker 1
It’s not for everybody what I just described, it’s just not. And, you know, and I that is never my opening salvo in one of our conversations. I mean, this this is something that I would tease out of somebody over a long conversation about risk appetite and plans for the future, etc..

00:31:49:04 – 00:32:10:21
Speaker 4
But it’s all it’s all you kind of should know everything, even if it’s standard, because it’s a negotiation with the with the provider. You know, you need to know what’s covered. What’s not covered. I mean, I think it’s your responsibility as a landlord to sort of not just to sign. And I mean, it’s good to take the advice, but to understand what is and what isn’t right.

00:32:10:23 – 00:32:32:06
Speaker 4
So what mistakes do you think landlords make when this is where the question is coming from? When I was starting out and I was buying apartment buildings, you would see these pro formas and the pro forma would be, you know, the insurance for like a six unit apartment building in Beverly Hills or whatever would be $1,200 or something.

00:32:32:07 – 00:32:53:00
Speaker 4
It’s like, and then I would go to my agent at the time and it would be like $15,000 plus another 25,000 for earthquake. I just didn’t understand, how do you get 10% less, you know, costs or more than 10% cost? What was I missing? What did people miss? Yeah.

00:32:53:02 – 00:33:28:17
Speaker 1
You’re not missing anything. What? The scenario I keep seeing over and over and over again is, you know, one of my more institutional clients is acquiring a building from some family that’s owned it for 100 years. And, you know, they’ve got grandfathered insurance with a company that’s just kind of kept renewing over time and forgot about them. And you know, that insurance is not really available anymore either, that carrier doesn’t write that sort of insurance in that sort of geography anymore, and they’re just not a player anymore.

00:33:28:17 – 00:33:49:23
Speaker 1
So we got to go out to the market at today’s rates, or they’re still a player, but just not at those rates anymore. And so there’s plenty of situations where I found that the the incumbent carrier is kind of asleep at the switch or, or maybe, you know, the claims history was was clean. And so they left left it well enough alone.

00:33:49:23 – 00:34:12:17
Speaker 1
And now that the property is changing hands, you know, you know, everything’s up in the air. And so that is just not available anymore. And so over and over and over again, I see people, you know, underwriting these things based on the seller’s historical insurance costs. That is, you know, one third what today’s market is, right. You know, sometimes worse.

00:34:12:19 – 00:34:39:01
Speaker 1
And, you know, they’re just in for a rude surprise. You know, my, my, my more savvy clients, they call. Yeah. While they’re underwriting, you know, before their earnest money goes hard and they’re vetting those numbers. And, you know, I usually have to, you know, give them the bad news that, hey, that that rate is no longer available, you know, and and then the challenge becomes convincing the seller that that rate is no longer available.

00:34:39:02 – 00:35:09:06
Speaker 1
And when his reality is what’s absolutely available. I renewed it a month ago. Yeah. So what the heck are you talking about? You need a better agent. Talk to my agent. In which case that agents like. Yeah, no, I can’t replicate that. So it’s there’s this kind of tug of war happening between buyers and sellers that, you know, everyone knows about the tug of war, you know, where the sellers anchored at this high price on this building and the buyer is anchored at, you know, a more market driven price.

00:35:09:10 – 00:35:19:00
Speaker 1
But the same thing happens with insurance, you know, and when you apply cap rates, you know, it has, you know, an outsized effect. It really matters on the bottom line.

00:35:19:06 – 00:35:43:05
Speaker 4
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, it’s a business that’s that’s kind of. So speaking of the the business and all these, you know, typical things, do insurance companies get creative with what they provide? You know, if you go to a, a broker or an insurance company and you represent, you want some kind of rental income protection or something, that’s kind of not typical.

00:35:43:06 – 00:35:47:03
Speaker 4
Are they creative or are they flexible, or is it pretty much set in stone? The types of.

00:35:47:08 – 00:36:08:18
Speaker 1
It’s well, I mean rental income protection is available. And so but but the the answer to your question, do they get creative or do they think out of the box. The answer is generally no. Right. You know they work on the law of large numbers. So if you have this really neat kind of Nichi idea that doesn’t work right.

00:36:08:18 – 00:36:36:19
Speaker 1
If they can’t sell, you know, 100,000 of those, those policies to 100,000 very diverse customers across the country, then it does not make sense for them. And so, you know, just by its very nature, you know, the industry kind of shuns creativity in a kind of a perverse way. I mean, I think I’m thinking of it in a perverse way, but but it does make sense when you think about the actuarial science that has to undergird their underwriting.

00:36:36:21 – 00:37:08:06
Speaker 1
It makes a lot of sense. Now, if you’re big enough and you have a huge enough risk with a huge enough premium, you know, we can we can work with Lloyd’s of London and things like that to come up with, you know, very creative solutions. But for your typical property owner that is that’s out of reach. You know, we’ve done some major projects for some marquee like stadiums and things of that nature where creativity is allowed.

00:37:08:07 – 00:37:26:06
Speaker 1
Okay. On that kind of a scale. Yeah. And, you know, it’s a monumental effort and it is doable. But if you’ve got a, you know, a typical office building, you know, retail building or warehouse or something like that, it’s just not in the cards.

00:37:26:07 – 00:37:40:04
Speaker 4
It makes sense because you’re, you know, you’re asking a company to put their resources into something that’s not typical, right? And it’s going to cost money. So you have to make it a convincing argument that it’s worth them investing into looking into that.

00:37:40:05 – 00:37:58:18
Speaker 1
Right. But I will say that, you know, the creativity does come in on the margins. Okay. So so if we go back to your vacant building example, if you came to me and said, look, I have this vacant building, it’s in a high crime area, you know, we would run some crime scores and things like that to vet that, first of all.

00:37:58:20 – 00:38:18:22
Speaker 1
And then we would we would come up with a plan or I would encourage you to work with us to come up with a plan. So we would bring in our risk control team and we would come up with a series of recommendations, you know, some of which might be fairly cost effective, others might be, you know, out of reach, you know, expense wise.

00:38:18:22 – 00:38:36:03
Speaker 1
But we would come up with those recommendations, figure out what was economically feasible for you and do a plan. So let’s say we want to install security cameras. We want to hire, you know, a company that does active monitoring that’s, you know, they’re watching those cameras. They’re not just waiting for an event to happen to address after the fact.

00:38:36:03 – 00:38:59:08
Speaker 1
That doesn’t work. You know, we can put water leak detectors in the building and try to, you know, and then maybe some fencing and lighting solutions and things like that registering, you know, you know, with the local police that it’s a vacant building and, you know, maybe they’ll do a little more drive bys than they otherwise would, and then they’d be alerted if they saw human activity at night.

00:38:59:09 – 00:39:22:07
Speaker 1
Let’s say that, hey, that’s not supposed to be there. And so by implementing these things, we can proactively work with the carriers to to show how you kind of rise to the top, amongst other risks, and hopefully get some more quotes for you and have a more competitive process for you that hopefully yields a better outcome for you.

00:39:22:07 – 00:39:33:22
Speaker 1
So I think there’s room for creativity between property management and property owner and insurance agent to work together to come up with a plan that works.

00:39:33:23 – 00:39:39:14
Speaker 4
They just want to be taken, you know, the risks to be mitigated by some level, which makes complete sense. Yeah, it’s.

00:39:39:14 – 00:39:51:00
Speaker 1
The difference between just filling out an application and really being proactive to to try to rise to the top because they get a lot of submissions. Yeah. And they all tend to look the same. Yeah. You don’t want to look the same.

00:39:51:01 – 00:40:13:16
Speaker 4
Right, right. Yeah. That makes sense. Do you think that there’s so one question, and I think this could apply to a lot of people looking to invest in real estate. Is there a specific kind of property that maybe has more risk that another. You know, I was looking at a house in evergreen, for example. I think that it’s very hard to get fire coverage there if it’s a wood built house because it’s wood and, you know, fire.

00:40:13:17 – 00:40:18:09
Speaker 4
So is there a certain types of properties that you would think to stay out of as an investor?

00:40:18:10 – 00:40:22:11
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, residential tends to carry more risk.

00:40:22:12 – 00:40:23:02
Speaker 4
Okay.

00:40:23:03 – 00:40:48:15
Speaker 1
I mean, you’ve got human occupants there. Many things can go wrong. However, you know, from an investor standpoint it’s very attractive. I mean, people need to live somewhere. We have a shortage of housing, etc.. And so, you know, I’m not here to to make your investment decisions for you, but I ought to be at the table. Right. And so, so you can make an informed decision.

00:40:48:17 – 00:41:02:03
Speaker 1
So what we can do is if you’re, you know, in the property selection phase, we’ve got a lot of tools at our disposal. I mentioned crime scores. Yeah. I could run a crime score for you and see if it’s a high crime area and how the insurance industry is looking at it.

00:41:02:04 – 00:41:02:17
Speaker 4
Right.

00:41:02:22 – 00:41:27:16
Speaker 1
That might inform your decisions. Likewise, I can run wildfire scores. So you mentioned evergreen Colorado. Like let’s let’s run a wildfire score, right. See how the industry is looking at that particular property. And granted, you know, those scores are driven by these maps that are very low resolution. And, you know, we have people on staff. We have a certified wildfire mitigation specialist on staff.

00:41:27:16 – 00:41:50:16
Speaker 1
And so for some commercial projects where we had, you know, the wild fire scores are rated 1 to 100. I mean, we were, you know, anything north of the 65 or so is considered bad. And so, I mean, we were getting scores in the high 70s on a project we were looking at up in the mountains, and we were able to create a wildfire mitigation plan, okay.

00:41:50:17 – 00:42:10:09
Speaker 1
And really make a presentation to the carriers that, look, not only are we going to be proactive in X, Y, and Z ways, but this property is really well protected. We have an interstate on one side. We have a local road. On the other side, you have all these other natural and man made barriers for the wildfire risk.

00:42:10:09 – 00:42:23:16
Speaker 1
Really that score, that score was unwarranted, right? In this case, we made this case strongly enough. Carriers accepted that case, and we had a competitive bidding process that turned out well for the client.

00:42:23:18 – 00:42:32:05
Speaker 4
That sounds so interesting to me because, you know, when you think broker, you think that they they know the carriers. I guess that’s the the technical term.

00:42:32:06 – 00:42:33:07
Speaker 1
We do.

00:42:33:08 – 00:42:33:13
Speaker 4
Know.

00:42:33:13 – 00:42:34:04
Speaker 1
The characters.

00:42:34:04 – 00:42:48:23
Speaker 4
But but you also do your own analysis, which in a way you’re like an insurance company in this sense. Maybe you don’t provide the insurance, but if you’re underwriting these different variables of properties, then you’re acting in a way on behalf of yeah, I.

00:42:48:23 – 00:43:06:11
Speaker 1
Would I would think of it as pre underwriting. Right. We want to underwrite the risk, anticipate what those characters because we know them well in most cases. You know, we want to anticipate what their concerns are going to be and head them off. Yeah. And address them and say all right you know, you’re right. This property is risky for these reasons.

00:43:06:13 – 00:43:17:22
Speaker 1
Here’s what we’ve done to mitigate it. Here’s why. You know, your you know, the the you know, the canned wildfire scores, etc. are wrong in this case. And make the case.

00:43:17:22 – 00:43:37:05
Speaker 4
And you’re representing on behalf of your client. So it makes sense what you’re doing. I mean, to me it’s fascinating how different different businesses within real estate, they’re on the same page. The owner doesn’t want the house to catch on fire. The insurance doesn’t want the thing, you know, the house to catch on fire or property or whatever it is.

00:43:37:07 – 00:43:53:04
Speaker 4
So it’s on the same page of wanting to mitigate. If you have a vacant building you want, you don’t want somebody to break in. So what are you going to do to be on the same page? I mean, the profit may be in the value going up. That’s maybe more on the landlord’s better, but more in the landlord’s interest.

00:43:53:04 – 00:43:56:21
Speaker 4
But in terms of like risk mitigation it is very similar.

00:43:56:22 – 00:44:22:22
Speaker 1
Well, and selfishly, you know, as, as an insurance broker, you know, I want my clients to be long term insurable. And that means not having a ton of claims. Right? You know, the frequency and severity of claims, you know, is, is the path to becoming uninsurable. And and when that happens, I have no client, you have no insurance, nobody’s happy.

00:44:23:00 – 00:44:29:02
Speaker 1
And so it’s in my interest to keep your nose clean. So that’s what we do. That’s why we have a risk control team.

00:44:29:06 – 00:44:49:09
Speaker 4
Yeah. I mean, that reminds me. I don’t want to go too much into the Los Angeles fires, but a lot of people didn’t make claims with, you know, smoke damage because they just didn’t want higher premiums. They didn’t want to be uninsurable because it was kind of a mark on there and something that isn’t a big mark. Still, they just didn’t want the mark on their record, I guess.

00:44:49:10 – 00:45:20:21
Speaker 1
Right? Well, well. And like our risk control team, we have a claim claims advocacy team okay. So when that, you know, unthinkable event happens which is totally thinkable, you know, we have a team that will guide you in either making the claim decision to to make the claim or not. How to make the claim. You know how to properly characterize the claim, what background research needs needs to be done to support the investigative effort.

00:45:20:22 – 00:45:39:23
Speaker 1
And we’re there throughout the process. And so that part is critical. And, you know, anyone in investigating a new insurance agent ought to ask about, you know, what do I get in the event of a claim? Right. You know, what sort of advocacy do you have? What does that look like? What is their experience in dealing with these carriers?

00:45:39:23 – 00:45:42:04
Speaker 1
In my type of industry.

00:45:42:06 – 00:45:43:05
Speaker 4
That’s a huge.

00:45:43:08 – 00:45:50:05
Speaker 1
Particularly if you’re in a high risk industry, manufacturing, construction, etc., you know. Oh yeah. And any kind of real estate.

00:45:50:06 – 00:46:06:04
Speaker 4
I mean, having that backup and having that confidence, I think from a broker is it’s in value. It’s worth its weight in gold because you need to have that communication. Also because the carriers trust the broker to a certain degree, you know, because they want to keep doing business.

00:46:06:04 – 00:46:06:23
Speaker 1
Some more than others.

00:46:07:00 – 00:46:11:15
Speaker 4
So yeah, I’m sure it’s the. So what’s the most satisfying part of your work?

00:46:11:16 – 00:46:33:03
Speaker 1
I’ll give you two answers to that question. I mean, number one is sort of the consultative approach and kind of it’s a it’s a collective problem solving that we do with our clients. That’s very rewarding. But really. And so that’s the kind of the intellectual side. Yeah. But the, the real reward for me has been the relationships. Okay.

00:46:33:04 – 00:46:56:15
Speaker 1
And and that goes two ways. You know, the first way is, is outwardly. And that should be pretty apparent where I get to work with people that I like, that I seek out, I want to do business with. And, you know, someday, hopefully they choose that they want to do business with me. And so I develop those relationships both before they engage me and after.

00:46:56:16 – 00:47:22:21
Speaker 1
Right. And I get to know their business and kind of live vicariously through the interesting and creative things they’re doing. So that’s rewarding. But likewise, internally, you know, I work for a large company, and we have these industry experts in all these different disciplines that are just wonderful people, really good at what they do. And so I enjoyed, you know, getting to know those folks on the inside as well.

00:47:23:00 – 00:47:44:05
Speaker 1
And the best part is when I get to, you know, marry those two together and introduce people I like on the outside to people I like on the inside and watch those relationships blossom. And then I just kind of, you know, take a back seat, you know, at least temporarily, to watch that flourish. I mean, it doesn’t get any better than that.

00:47:44:06 – 00:47:48:05
Speaker 1
I mean, that’s that’s really been what’s the it for me?

00:47:48:05 – 00:47:59:17
Speaker 4
I could see that being a good life sort of enjoyment, you know, connecting people. Yeah. So I don’t know if you guys do bonds and and securities like that.

00:47:59:20 – 00:48:19:12
Speaker 1
Do we, do we have a surety group here that’s dedicated to that practice? I mean, we do payment and performance bonds, right. For contractor clients. That’s a that’s a big part of it. You know, we do fidelity bonds for, you know, our employee benefits clients and the list goes on. But I think payment and performance bonds are probably the most common.

00:48:19:13 – 00:48:23:11
Speaker 1
And it’s a tremendous practice. We have a whole team. That’s all they do.

00:48:23:12 – 00:48:44:12
Speaker 4
I almost didn’t want to touch on that because because it’s so different and it is very niche. But it’s extremely you know, there’s so many risks in construction and having performance bonds and all these I mean, there’s so many different types of bonds, but I don’t know if it works in a similar way. It is an insurance. It’s just a different name for it for a specific type.

00:48:44:13 – 00:48:47:05
Speaker 4
Yeah. So is it the nature of the business similar.

00:48:47:06 – 00:49:10:03
Speaker 1
It’s it’s actually very different. I liken it more to a lending relationship than an insurance relationship, because they’re really underwriting the balance sheet of the company and in most cases, the balance sheet of the principles of that company, because they need to guarantee it. Yeah. Except in the case of very large companies with a lot of liquid assets.

00:49:10:03 – 00:49:44:08
Speaker 1
And so that it’s, it’s I mean, you know, we have, you know, our property and casualty business, which is very large. We, we have, you know, our employee benefits business, which is a whole other side of the insurance that we haven’t even talked about. But then surety is kind of its own unique beast. And so it’s very much like a, like a lending underwriting process where they can get comfortable, you know, to a certain bonding capacity, given the balance sheet of the, you know, the principles behind it.

00:49:44:09 – 00:50:03:20
Speaker 4
Yeah. I mean, just with litigation and construction, I’ve had to educate myself a lot more on it. And it it is a solution for a lot of issues that landlords may have if they if there’s potential Liz Pendants is put on properties or liens put on properties. How do you get out from under that. You know, if you’re in the middle of a construction project, life.

00:50:03:21 – 00:50:05:12
Speaker 1
Needs to go on. Right.

00:50:05:14 – 00:50:15:17
Speaker 4
Well, you can’t sell it. You can’t refinance it, which is you need the money to pay the contractor. It’s it could be a major problem. So that’s one answer to that kind of problem.

00:50:15:18 – 00:50:42:18
Speaker 1
Right. Well, so everything I was just describing about the relationship. You know, multiply it by ten when it comes to the surety relationship. Yeah. You know, because it’s necessarily intimate and personal because we’re getting into, you know, the principles of the company and their and their personal assets, you know, and in certain cases, their spouses have to sign as well, you know, depending on, on how their assets are situated.

00:50:42:18 – 00:50:54:15
Speaker 1
And so it’s very personal, very intimate, very confidential, which just elevates the trust factor that just becomes that much more important.

00:50:54:15 – 00:51:04:13
Speaker 4
So just so that people watching, if they don’t know what bonds are because I was in, you know, I’ve been in real estate since I was a kid, I didn’t really know what a bond was. How do you define what what that means?

00:51:04:14 – 00:51:32:22
Speaker 1
Well, it’s it’s classic risk shifting. I mean, just like insurance, you know, you’re shifting the risk of a fire, let’s say in property insurance, you know, from party A, you as the property owner to party B, the insurance carrier, you know, like likewise with bonding. If I have some obligation to a municipality, let’s say to install some public improvements, I need to install some sidewalks, let’s say adjacent to the apartment building and building.

00:51:33:00 – 00:51:54:22
Speaker 1
You know, the city wants to know darn sure that you are going to perform. And how do they get that guarantee? Well, they want, you know, a big bad insurance company to step in to say, well, if Eduardo doesn’t perform or Jason doesn’t perform, we will hire somebody and perform, right? You know, and so, you know, depending on the municipality’s requirements.

00:51:54:23 – 00:52:15:12
Speaker 1
You know, we’ll set a number of dollars of of what that obligation is and that company will step in. Right. So it’s it’s incredibly valuable. Yeah. But you could see how, you know, that relationship might be, you know, super personal and fraught just because of the very intimate nature there.

00:52:15:13 – 00:52:34:03
Speaker 4
Oh, the huge liability or not liability. But I could see the interest. And then you’re going to be bumping heads with agreements or disagreements there with people possibly. And, and you need to have the wherewithal to be able to. I totally understand the reasoning behind it, but I think it’s important to touch on because that’s another type of insurance, that it’s the one thing.

00:52:34:03 – 00:52:43:19
Speaker 1
People don’t think about until they have to. Yeah, and then they’re scrambling. That’s not the way to do it. I mean, you really want to be ahead of that and build this relationship over time. Right. Yeah.

00:52:43:22 – 00:52:55:10
Speaker 4
I mean, besides performance bonds, the one that I think I think of is like a payment if you own a sub, oh, a sub, some money and they put a lien on the property.

00:52:55:11 – 00:52:55:18
Speaker 1
You bond.

00:52:55:18 – 00:53:04:09
Speaker 4
Around, you want to make sure. Yeah. You bond around the lean and it’ll get taken care of. It’s just not a lean on the property anymore. So it gives you the freedom to do it.

00:53:04:11 – 00:53:26:02
Speaker 1
In that case, you know, it’s a bit more transactional, but it still gets pretty personal, you know, for, for, you know, looking into your personal finances, depending on, you know, the structure of the landlord. And so, you know, in most cases those are much easier to get. Yeah. Okay. The process is a bit shorter, but it depends on the size of the lien.

00:53:26:03 – 00:53:47:16
Speaker 4
Of course. Yeah. Well, Jason, every time I see you, you’re always reliable. You’re always professional. You always look so well put together. What are your three key daily habits to, like? Keep yourself. Sort of always kind of ready for, I don’t know, not business, but just ready for life. Yeah. Good key daily habits.

00:53:47:17 – 00:54:02:22
Speaker 1
Wow, what a good question. You know, one of those things. A lot of coffee, a tremendous amount of coffee. That’s first. But, you know, vigorous exercise for me is what keeps my head straight, believe it or not.

00:54:02:22 – 00:54:03:21
Speaker 4
In the morning or.

00:54:03:21 – 00:54:27:19
Speaker 1
In the morning, it’s the first thing I do is I’m outside in the dark, running, usually, you know, or something else. And, you know, I got to do something every day. And so I’m out at 536 in the morning most days, just getting after it. And then, you know, I can kind of get into my business with, with my head straight.

00:54:27:21 – 00:54:57:13
Speaker 1
And I think, number one, I think it by doing something hard first thing in the morning, it makes the rest of the day seem easy. Not easy, but easier. Yeah. You know, secondly, you know, there’s just the general health benefits, you know, but but really, it just helps set the stage by having an accomplishment. It just makes my outlook more positive and makes me feel better throughout the day.

00:54:57:13 – 00:55:23:14
Speaker 1
So I would say the exercise coffee and then just I expect to learn something new every day. Usually it’s from my colleagues, you know, in in the industry, whether they be in my organization or wholesalers or carriers, what have you. I mean, I learn something every day. I learned from my clients every day. You know, something about there’s a there’s always a new problem I never heard of.

00:55:23:19 – 00:55:34:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then I can go investigate and talk to the smart people I work with and, you know, do that creative problem solving part. So that’s that’s what I would say.

00:55:34:15 – 00:55:46:12
Speaker 4
I love that. And definitely eating a frog. That’s a statement I heard from my my buddy Adam Gower. He had a guess. He would say call it eating a frog for breakfast. Yeah. That was.

00:55:46:14 – 00:55:48:07
Speaker 1
That’s that’s a good one.

00:55:48:08 – 00:56:03:00
Speaker 4
Which is hard doing the hard thing. Right. Let’s see what what advice would you have to somebody who’s trying to get into real estate? It was, you know, young or not young, whatever, but they want to get in in the real estate game. I don’t like calling it game, but.

00:56:03:02 – 00:56:36:00
Speaker 1
Be humble. Have have the humility to ask the dumb questions. Go seek out the smartest people you can find that are seasoned in the industry. Find some people that are successful in the industry. Find some people that have been unsuccessful in the industry. You can learn from them too, and learn from other people’s mistakes. People are. It’s really easy to get people to talk about themselves and you can learn so much, so do not pass up that opportunity.

00:56:36:02 – 00:56:41:01
Speaker 4
What’s the hardest lesson you’ve learned in your career that helped you grow the most?

00:56:41:03 – 00:56:41:21
Speaker 1
Oh my.

00:56:41:22 – 00:56:56:14
Speaker 4
That’s a tough one. Yeah, we can skip that. One of you, I don’t know. There’s a lot of good lessons. Sometimes the hard ones and painful ones are the best ones. I’m going through a lot of those right now. Yeah.

00:56:56:15 – 00:57:02:02
Speaker 1
I’ve had plenty of humility pills over the years. Or humble pie.

00:57:02:03 – 00:57:04:07
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:57:04:09 – 00:57:26:17
Speaker 1
I mean, just too many to even get into. But, you know, again, learning from my own mistakes instead of somebody else’s, it would have been a lot less painful learning from somebody else’s. But, you know, we grow. Yeah. And, you know, there’s nothing like accelerating your growth through painful lessons like that. So, you know, we learn from pain.

00:57:26:18 – 00:57:32:03
Speaker 4
Well, thank you so much for being on the bad guys. Thank you for what you do. Thank you helped me a lot.

00:57:32:08 – 00:57:34:07
Speaker 1
It’s been been a great conversation I.

00:57:34:07 – 00:57:37:19
Speaker 4
Appreciate it. It was really fun. Thanks. We’ll see you tomorrow night.

00:57:37:20 – 00:57:40:04
Speaker 1
All right. Well, trying to make insurance fun.

00:57:40:05 – 00:57:44:21
Speaker 4
Yeah. This is great. This is very educational. I don’t think there’s anything like this out there.

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