The Signet Podcast – Pam Maas Transcript

In this episode, Eduardo Signet speaks with Denver commercial real estate broker, landlord, and investor Stuart Zall, founder of The Zall Company.

The conversation explores how relationships, tenant selection, networking, mentorship, long-term ownership, and neighborhood-building shape success in commercial real estate. Stuart shares lessons from his career in retail leasing, property ownership, Denver development, international projects, and the practical realities of working with landlords, tenants, brokers, contractors, and emerging brands.

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Podcast transcript

SIGNET: Stuart, thank you for coming. I have so much to ask you. I want to introduce you as the broker and landlord in the Denver market, although you do brokerage and properties everywhere, including a deal in China. You have quite a lot of experience. Do you want to say a little bit about yourself or introduce yourself?

STUART ZALL:

I am Stuart Zall, founder of The Zall Company, which I founded in 2000.
I did not grow up expecting to go into real estate, and I did not come from a multigenerational real estate family.
I studied accounting at the University of Denver, got my CPA, and started at Arthur Andersen, but I lasted only about a year.
I moved into real estate almost by accident after helping Steve Gettleman with accounting on a strip center, then being asked to help lease it by calling people from the phone book.
I learned by u201cdialing for dollars,u201d got results, and eventually moved through Lakeside Mall, Taubman, and outlet-mall projects around the country.
Taubman taught me the art of leasing, merchandising, and building tenant relationships across multiple markets.
In 2000, when my firm was bought, I chose to start my own business instead of moving, and the business grew from hired-gun leasing work into a brokerage company.
Along the way, I started buying properties when opportunities came up, often through partnerships, because I believe successful brokers should have some investment exposure to commercial real estate.
I eventually bought the Larimer building where we are now, partly because I needed space for my own company and could lease the rest to another tenant.
Having a storefront and a sign on the street has changed the business because people now drive by, see the company, and call.

SIGNET: It is so interesting. I love this area. I have been here a few times and have been to the restaurants. I did not realize everything was right on this block, like Barcelona, Federales, and other places. It is a cool part of town. How did you know this was going to become that?

STUART ZALL:

Sometimes you get lucky.
A friend from New York, Stephanie Rubenstein, was representing a concept connected to the founder of Lululemon, and they wanted a gritty part of town for a millennial worker-focused concept.
At that time, Larimer Street was very rough; Denver Central Market was not open, and there was very little there besides Ratio Brewery.
My friend saw something in the area that reminded her of Brooklyn, and I trusted her perspective even though I did not fully see it myself at first.
I made it a quest to find a building in that area, and we got what I believe is one of the best blocks on Larimer Street in RiNo.
When I bought the building, I was nervous enough that I did not tell my wife exactly where it was at first.
The area still has city challenges, but the building has worked out extremely well.
My advice is not to overanalyze real estate; sometimes you have to find it, take the risk, and let time work for you.
Real estate is scary because you are putting a lot at risk, but time can become your best friend if you take the chance.

SIGNET: You hit on so many points I want to talk about. Mentorship is one. First, can you talk about your mentors and the values you learned in your training with Taubman? You have also been a mentor for me in Denver, and I have met many people you have mentored who became incredibly successful. What qualities do you look for in people that lead them to success?

STUART ZALL:

I think it starts with heart.
If you have passion for what you do, then it does not feel like work.
You need drive, passion, and the ability to dream.
I think younger people are missing face-to-face communication because so much is done through texting, Instagram, and efficient digital communication.
When I started, even sending someone a picture of a space took days, and that slower process created dialogue and relationship-building.
Today, information can be sent instantly, but the relationship process can be lost.
Networking begins with meeting people and building relationships.
I try to create platforms, such as breakfasts, where people can meet others who may help advance their careers.
If you want to make deals, you need to put yourself where decision-makers are, such as shopping-center conventions and industry events.
You should not only spend time with people you already know; you should try to meet as many people as possible and then follow through.
Many deals begin with a cup of coffee, a handshake, or simply bumping into someone.

SIGNET: I love the idea of networking outside your own category. Developers often network with developers, and brokers often network with brokers. I have looked at finance events and capital groups because you get exposure to different people and make different links. One thing I have heard you say is that you never know where a deal is going to come from, and it is about being there. Is that one of the ideas?

STUART ZALL:

I learned something from doing business in China: if you are in a room where everyone speaks English, you are less valuable, but if you are the one person who speaks a language no one else speaks, you become extremely valuable.
I apply that metaphor to real estate networking.
If I am in a room full of brokers, everyone already understands leasing, so I am less differentiated.
If I am in a room where no one understands what I do, then I may be able to provide something valuable.
I like working with contractors, architects, finance people, and others connected to real estate but not doing the exact same thing.
I see networking as collaboration, where different people can benefit from different parts of the same opportunity.
I try to pay it forward by connecting general contractors or other professionals with people who may help them, without keeping a strict scorecard.
Those relationships often come back in useful ways, even if not immediately.
Mentoring people is not just telling them what to do; it is encouraging them to go out, network, socialize, talk to people, and learn from events.
As an example, I paid to meet Danny Meyer at an event, got a signed book, introduced myself, and created a connection that later became useful.
You cannot build those kinds of connections if you only sit in the audience; sometimes you need to go to the front and introduce yourself.

SIGNET: You talked about win-win situations. One thing you have said before, and I have seen you do, is that you want your tenants, your clients, and the people you represent to win. You have said that after the lease is signed and the commission is done, that is when you start to work by helping promote them, because if they expand, they are going to call you. What do you do after the lease is signed, since they still have so much to do?

STUART ZALL:

You can go too far and become your clientu2019s outsourced administrative staff, so you should not go looking for trouble.
It is still important to check in and help when there are problems.
I try to guide clients toward good people, such as reliable liquor-license attorneys, contractors, or other professionals.
I prefer to give clients two or three strong referrals rather than just one, so they can do their own homework and choose.
My role is to point them toward people who are tried and true, not to make every decision for them.
Most of the help is needed between signing the lease and opening the store.
After opening, I cannot solve every operational problem, such as labor or marketing, but I can pick up the phone and be available.
Signing a lease can be a multimillion-dollar commitment, so I want the tenant to succeed.
I once helped a restaurant franchisee renegotiate terms and work through problems even though I technically represented the landlord.
A lot of salespeople disappear after they get paid, but we want continuity, repeat business, and clients who know we tried to help.
At the core, I see our work as solving problems.

SIGNET: I love the way your brain thinks. You are very creative. Taking a wider-angle point of view, why commercial versus residential? I love commercial, but I am curious why you chose that path.

STUART ZALL:

Triple-net leases are a major reason.
I had experience with residential early on, including buying condos during a period when banks wanted properties off their books.
At one point, I had about 50 condos with a partner.
Residential was more management-intensive, especially before todayu2019s technology made banking and administration easier.
I do not have the patience for residential.
Commercial is more interesting to me because I am fascinated by businesses, retail, and how those businesses operate.
I moved most of my residential holdings into commercial projects over time.
In commercial, if a store does not work out for an operator with many stores, it is usually not as emotionally catastrophic as something going wrong with someoneu2019s home.
Residential deals involve peopleu2019s shelter and can be more personal and stressful.

SIGNET: In commercial real estate, what trends are you looking out for? We have tariffs, the internet has been affecting retail for a while, and there are other forces in the market.

STUART ZALL:

People have probably been worrying about the future of retail and commerce since ancient times.
Humans will always need commerce in one form or another.
There will be AI, headwinds, and other changes, and the key is to keep pivoting.
If you sit back and do nothing, you are going to be dead.
COVID was a major test for restaurants, and the smart operators quickly moved into patio seating, takeout, and alcohol-to-go where allowed.
Apparel is changing because so much can be bought online, but people still shop when traveling or looking for experiences.
Food still has to be made somewhere, even if DoorDash or another service delivers it.
I think ghost kitchens have mostly been a bust because people still need to see, experience, and trust a restaurant.
Food, entertainment, and apparel will remain, but models may change, stores may get smaller, and department stores need to reinvent themselves.

SIGNET: I am loving these public markets you see everywhere. I drove up and down the coast, and places like San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara have public markets. Here there is The Hangar and Edgewater. I love those developments because they have synergy together if they are done well. Colorado Mills may have been an example of that 15 or 20 years ago.

STUART ZALL:

Denver is often a poster child for jumping on trends harder than other cities.
We probably overdid the public market and food hall concept.
Some public markets and food halls are winners, but others do not work.
It is not enough to build a food hall and assume people will show up.
You still have to put real thought into the concept, location, tenant mix, and execution.
Denver Central Market and Edgewater are strong examples.
Some others have gone out of business, which shows the model is not automatically successful.
If the concept is done right, it can work very well.

SIGNET: Your company has come such a long way. I think it is incredible that you started as an accountant, which uses a certain type of brain, and then went into such a relationship-heavy business. What qualities did you bring from accounting into your current work?

STUART ZALL:

I can understand financial statements, accounts receivable, and the basic mechanics of a business.
That is valuable because many brokers do not really understand the business side.
I understand operating properties and mortgages.
At the same time, I outsource almost everything that is not one of my strengths.
I use an outsourced bookkeeper and outsourced graphic arts help.
I know I need to work within my strengths.
Running numbers and detailed accounting work are not where I perform best now, even though the background helps.

SIGNET: I have a personal question that I think applies well to the podcast. Hiring people and managing people is really a talent. There is a reason CEOs sometimes manage managers, and managers manage individuals. How do you develop the skills needed to manage people? If you do not do that right, your business suffers and you reach dead ends.

STUART ZALL:

Managing people is a real challenge.
I believe there may be some force or timing that helps you find what you need when you need it.
About a year ago, I hit a wall because sales were down and I was struggling to motivate the team.
Our leasing meetings were not productive, and people, including me, were distracted.
I realized I needed a coach.
I met Steve Benoit from Crafted Consultants through my son and later sat down with him for coffee.
Steve explained a structured process for working with people, and I decided to try it even though it was not cheap.
He has become a meaningful part of the team.
We now have mandatory Monday meetings, with no cell phones, where each agent reviews what they said they would do and whether they got it done.
We also have one-on-one status updates and KPIs.
One KPI is getting one positive Google review per month from each person, which helps the company cast a wider net.
We now track deals by quarter instead of just doing deals without tracking them.
The coaching and structure have been important to our growth.

SIGNET: I asked that because I am managing a construction project in Pebble Beach right now, and you manage subs and contractors. Many people I have interviewed say their success is due to the people they hire. A lot of it is finding the right people with drive, quality, and pride in workmanship. It is hard to find those people because everyone wants to present themselves that way, but not everyone is that person.

STUART ZALL:

A lot of hiring is trial and error.
We now have an onboarding sheet and an interview sheet that lists what we are looking for.
You can also overanalyze hiring.
Right now, we are at capacity and do not have room for more people unless we build up or expand.
I am willing to take a chance on a lot of people.
Many people in the industry probably got their start with me.
In the past, I may not have had the tools to mentor and coach people properly, so I probably lost some talented people.
If you love what you do, it is not work.
I work in some form seven days a week because I am always available and always thinking about how brokers can be more productive.
I do not only think about their productivity in terms of my own income; I want them to succeed.
People are giving me their time and part of their lives, especially when they are young.
Even if someone only stays with me for a year, two years, or three years, I want them to leave with skills that help them succeed elsewhere.
At Arthur Andersen, many good accountants eventually went to work for clients, and the firm saw that as creating a friend at that company.
I see former employees similarly: if they leave and succeed, the relationship may help both of us later.
I do not expect anyone to give me their entire life, but I want their time with us to be productive.

SIGNET: You said you are at capacity. Where do you want to go from here? What is really good now, and what do you want your legacy to be? That is a two-for-one question, but they are different intentions.

STUART ZALL:

I am having a lot of fun and enjoying what is happening.
We are working on projects with the Orlando Magic, which has been very cool.
I have partners outside my company, including Dan Nelson and Neil Berkowitz, who help expand our bandwidth.
I like the arena and sports district space and see it as an area for future growth.
Many arenas are moving back into central business districts, which creates opportunities around live music, sports, restaurants, retail, and event traffic.
Time is precious for people, so projects that combine sports, entertainment, food, and retail can create strong commercial environments.
We do a lot of leasing downtown, in RiNo, and in Cherry Creek, and I want us to continue being a leader in those markets.
Downtown Denver still has a lot of opportunity, despite lingering perceptions from COVID, crime, and 16th Street Mall disruption.
When you lease space and bring in a store or restaurant, you can change a neighborhood for better or worse.
A lease such as Mendocino Farms in Cherry Creek changes the everyday experience of a neighborhood by adding a useful commerce point.
My legacy is not about ego; it is about improving the city or the commercial playground I work in.
Early in my career, I was focused on getting paid, but over time I came to care more about the type of tenant and whether they improve the neighborhood.
A street full of banks may pay rent, but it does not create the same neighborhood energy as coffee shops, restaurants, and places to shop.
The goal is to help create neighborhoods where people feel commerce, culture, and activity.

SIGNET: The tenants really give a neighborhood its feel u2014 the restaurants, bars, and different spots.

STUART ZALL:

The right tenant mix creates a good environment.
When neighborhoods improve through thoughtful retail and restaurant leasing, everyone benefits.

SIGNET: I was listening to another interview you did, and you said 2010 was a hard year after the Great Recession. How did you survive that, and what advice would you give to other people in future recessions?

STUART ZALL:

Praying is real.
If you have your health, you should not let your stock account or money account consume you.
Do not listen to all the background noise.
I do not watch much news because it can become distracting and negative.
In our business, the recession showed up late because commissions often take six months to a year to come in.
2009 was still fine, but in 2010 nothing was coming in.
I tried to get exposure by writing articles and appearing in trade magazines.
A partner and I wrote an article about repositioning malls, and someone from China called asking whether we could do that work there.
Our default answer was yes, even when we had to figure out how to execute afterward.
We needed demographic and psychographic data in China, which was difficult to get, but a colleague connected us with someone who did data work in Asia and had gone to the University of Denver.
We partnered with him, created a merchandising plan, and the client then asked whether we could lease the project.
The project was in Xiu2019an, which was connected to the Terracotta Warriors and the Silk Road.
I used my U.S. relationships with brands to find the right international contacts and started leasing the project.
I worked between China and Denver, using a Wi-Fi phone line with a Denver number so clients did not know I was overseas.
The project was ultimately scrapped because housing became more lucrative for the developer, but we had been paid in advance.
By the time that project ended, the U.S. economy had improved.
That experience helped us survive and led to work in places such as Puerto Rico and Hawaii.

SIGNET: I do residential in Europe, but it is interesting because that is another market. Even here, RiNo and Cherry Creek feel like different markets because the tenants are different. You deal with a lot of high-end, popular, and trendy tenants.

STUART ZALL:

I would not call most of our work true luxury, like Gucci or Hermu00e8s, because Denver is not a very luxury-heavy market.
We work more with upper-moderate and emerging brands.
That includes brands like Lululemon, North Face, Birkenstock, and other better brands.
I also love working with immigrants because many of them are fearless.
Some people create businesses because they may not have the same access to conventional jobs, and they are willing to take chances.
Those chances sometimes turn into great businesses.
I have worked with clients from one store to very large store counts, and it is rewarding to watch a brand grow.
It is interesting and fun to see a person or brand evolve from one location into something much larger.

SIGNET: That is part of their story. I think you did that with H&M, where you had the first one in Colorado.

STUART ZALL:

We did the first H&M in Colorado.
H&M has withstood the stress of downtown.
We also brought Uniqlo to downtown Denver, although it unfortunately closed during COVID.
Forever 21 was another example.
No brand lasts forever, but if you can get 15 years or more out of a brand, that can still be meaningful.

SIGNET: Thinking about the 16th Street Mall, coming from Los Angeles, what is the secret? In LA, it is very hard to turn around cities, maybe because of bureaucracy or something else. Here, you have the Downtown Denver Partnership and developers working with political bodies. What is the secret to turning around a place like that?

STUART ZALL:

Comparing Los Angeles and Denver is difficult because Los Angeles County is massive and harder to move.
Denver is smaller and more nimble.
Denver has a lot of downtown history.
Union Station was critical to Denveru2019s growth and connects directly to the 16th Street Mall.
The redevelopment of Union Station was a beautiful project.
Historically, the railroad helped Denver grow because the rail route came through Denver instead of elsewhere.
Larimer Street and downtown Denver developed around rail traffic, travelers, and the commerce they needed.
Denver has historic assets, including Larimer Square and older buildings, that give it a character beyond steel, brick, and glass.
The city has serious struggles, including high minimum wages and permitting timelines, but there are good people who believe in downtown.
With the 16th Street Mall work completed or nearing completion, I expect to see more positive activity in the next couple of years.

SIGNET: It is a great area. I lived near Union Station and would jog through 16th Street. That area has completely changed, with Whole Foods, the train, and a safer environment.

STUART ZALL:

During COVID, Denver dropped its guard and got hit on multiple levels.
The trend is now improving.
Some older office buildings may be converted to residential if conversion is feasible.
There is still a need for housing, even if apartment rents are currently soft.
I expect the need for apartments to continue as the city grows.

SIGNET: Prices have come up a lot since then too.

STUART ZALL:

Prices have come up, and interest rates are another obstacle.
Every generation has something that gets in the way.
I often hear people say something is too expensive and that they will wait for prices to come down.
In the long run, saving a relatively small amount on price may matter less when amortized over decades.

SIGNET: I once heard that it is not timing the market, it is time in the market. It is the same principle.

STUART ZALL:

Jordan Perlmutter once told me that some real estate projects succeed because of timing.
Even if you do not time it perfectly, real estate is a long game.
It is like golf: people focus on individual shots, but real estate has waves.
There are periods when you can make a lot of money quickly, but overall you need a long-term view.
If you take the long view, you have a better chance of being successful.

SIGNET: It seems like that is also what you do with your investments. Originally, the name of this podcast was u201cThe Long-Term Real Estate Investor,u201d because thinking long term removes some of the pressure around things like IRR calculations. If you have a 100-year business plan, it changes the mentality. I feel that in your investing and leasing, it is always long term, and there are also a lot of transaction costs in trying to flip.

STUART ZALL:

In commercial real estate, long-term thinking is important.
Because I did not come from a real estate family, I had to start by planting seeds myself.
It would have been nice to walk into an existing forest, but I had to begin building it over time.

SIGNET: It is tricky too, because when you are starting out, how are you going to buy something without financing? A lot of times the long-term plan is to get rid of financing so you have more stability and the bumps in the road are not as dramatic. Let me ask you the wrap-up questions. What was the number-one deal that changed your career, taught you the most, or had the most impact on you?

STUART ZALL:

The most important turning point was not really a deal; it was going to work for the Taubman Company.
That job was transformational because it taught me how to lease not just to fill space, but to create neighborhoods.
When I was about 27, I met a friend at a restaurant called Fresh Choice, saw a huge line, and asked about the owner.
I had just taken a job involving two malls, and within about 30 days I made two deals with that restaurant operator.
That happened because I asked a question when the opportunity was right in front of me.
Sometimes you are on the one-yard line and only need to ask the question.
Over my career, I did several deals with that operator, so that became an important relationship and an important early lesson.

SIGNET: What are your three key daily habits that have made you successful? I am always curious what time people wake up, whether they meditate, read a certain newspaper, or spend family time.

STUART ZALL:

I do not read a newspaper.
I get up early, usually around five.
My most productive time is between about five and eight in the morning.
I try to filter out negative noise because there is always a lot of it.
I would tell people not to listen to all the noise that is designed to stop them.
I try to stay positive.
I meditate for about ten minutes almost every day.
I use paper and pencil to write things down, even with all the CRMs and technology available.
I try to be thankful.
I remind myself that there are many opportunities available and that people do not need to stay stuck.
I try to wake up with a smile and a mindset of taking on the world, even if some days are harder by the end.

SIGNET: Final question: what would you say to a young individual who wanted to start in the real estate business? They might not know whether they want to be a broker, investor, or what segment to focus on. How would they find their path?

STUART ZALL:

I would tell them not to be afraid.
If they need to live at their parentsu2019 house or drive Uber while getting started, they should do what they need to do.
They should absorb as much information as possible.
There is so much information available now that they do not even have to subscribe to everything to learn.
They should become an expert at something and become the go-to person in that area.
They should not try to do everything.
They should find one area and try to be the best at it.
They need passion for the business.
If they think of it only as a job, they are in the wrong business.
It is always a good time to get into real estate, and bad times can actually be the best times to start.

SIGNET: Stuart, thank you so much. We could do round two another time. Thank you for joining the podcast, and hopefully we will grab dinner soon.

STUART ZALL:

I hope so.

INTERVIEWER u2014 SPEAKER UNCERTAIN: Bonus question: what are your thoughts about the new Burnham Yard deal and what it is going to do for downtown?

STUART ZALL:

I do not know exactly how it will affect downtown, but I think it will be very positive for Burnham Yard.
Burnham Yard feels like one of the last major pieces of Denver that has not really been developed.
A key question is what happens to the area where the stadium is now if activity shifts.
I think the project will not hurt downtown because people will still come downtown, and the distance may not be dramatically different.
Large investments, such as a multibillion-dollar stadium, create a multiplier effect that benefits many people.
I do worry about displacement, especially for people who currently live nearby and may have cheaper rent.
Growth can be positive, but people still need places to live.
Denver has done some work around affordable housing, but development can still affect neighborhoods.
I think developers and stakeholders need to think carefully about who is affected.
Overall, I think the project is good, but I hope there is thoughtful attention to housing and displacement.

00:00 welcome to the signant podcast so on
00:01

00:01 today’s show I interview Pamela Moss she
00:04

00:04 is an estate planning attorney Pamela
00:06

00:06 Moss is extremely knowledgeable when it
00:08

00:08 comes to taxes estate planning llc’s
00:11

00:11 incorporating and different things that
00:13

00:13 you need to know as a business person if
00:15

00:15 you’re setting up a business these are
00:16

00:16 also ways to protect yourself and to
00:18

00:18 limit your liabilities this is one of my
00:20

00:20 favorite podcasts because not enough
00:22

00:22 people talk about how to protect
00:24

00:24 themselves long term enjoy the show
00:26

00:26 thank you for
00:28

00:28 watching St W go ahead take a
00:33

00:34 [Music]
00:38

00:38 picture right here we
00:42

00:42 go a lot of people are not aware of how
00:45

00:45 important a state planning is and I’ve
00:48

00:48 seen horror stories I know it can be
00:49

00:49 tough to talk about death and what’s
00:52

00:52 going to happen after but it’s an
00:53

00:53 incredibly important topic and I’m
00:56

00:56 really happy to have you on my show so
00:58

00:58 yeah absolutely excited to be here with
00:60

00:60 you I heard you talking about your
01:01

01:01 grandmother’s story and that’s how you
01:03

01:03 got started into estate planning is that
01:06

01:06 where your passion came from yeah so I
01:08

01:08 grew up in Arizona and my grandma was a
01:11

01:11 teacher um and she’s one of those
01:13

01:13 teachers from the Depression era that
01:14

01:14 saved every penny and so when she passed
01:17

01:17 away she had a decent amount and she
01:18

01:18 went to kind of a large estate planning
01:20

01:20 firm in Arizona and when she passed away
01:22

01:22 her estate plan failed and we ended up
01:24

01:24 in Probate Court it cost our family a
01:26

01:26 lot of time cost a lot of conflict and I
01:29

01:29 you know was back in college at the time
01:30

01:30 but when I became a lawyer I looked into
01:32

01:32 it and I thought the firm had committed
01:33

01:33 malpractice and I found it’s actually
01:35

01:35 very common practice so everything
01:37

01:37 designed in my firm is to make sure what
01:38

01:38 happened to my family doesn’t happen to
01:40

01:40 everybody else or anybody else and so we
01:42

01:42 do things really intentionally different
01:44

01:44 for that reason in EST Estate Planning
01:45

01:45 in general it doesn’t just apply to real
01:47

01:47 estate if you have a brokerage account
01:49

01:49 if you have an oil company if whatever
01:51

01:51 it is you need to be prepared for the
01:54

01:54 future and it’s inevitable we’re all
01:55

01:55 gonna I mean probably unless something
01:58

01:58 miraculous happens we’re all gonna die
01:59

01:59 someday and you know something that just
02:03

02:03 to talk about my family my dad’s always
02:05

02:05 been very open and we always talked
02:07

02:07 about it it was you know he was the one
02:08

02:08 organizing everything and we always
02:10

02:10 talked about what would happen if he
02:12

02:12 passed away and you know we talk about
02:15

02:15 it maybe every year every two years but
02:17

02:17 it it does give him I’m sure a certain
02:19

02:19 sense of comfort and it gives me a
02:21

02:21 certain sense of comfort to know what my
02:23

02:23 role is in the future of whatever it is
02:26

02:26 that he leaves you know it’s really
02:28

02:28 great in your family that you guys have
02:29

02:29 taken the time to talk about it and I
02:31

02:31 think you know there was the silent
02:33

02:33 generation which was like the grand my
02:35

02:35 grandparents generation which really
02:36

02:36 didn’t talk about it yeah and then we
02:38

02:38 have the baby boomer generation and it’s
02:40

02:40 kind of a mix of like do they feel
02:42

02:42 comfortable talking about it do they not
02:44

02:44 and then kind of Our Generation and now
02:47

02:47 I don’t want to assume what your
02:48

02:48 generation is but I just turned 40 so
02:51

02:51 I’m we’re around but like you know we’re
02:53

02:53 get I’m technically an elder Millennial
02:54

02:54 I guess yeah what are we yeah it depends
02:56

02:56 where we look right but um I you know
02:59

02:59 there was a statistic recently that more
03:01

03:01 Millennials are doing estate planning
03:03

03:03 than any other generation and um they’re
03:06

03:06 putting estate plans in place and
03:08

03:08 they’re really Shifting the tide and I
03:10

03:10 think that transparency does make a huge
03:13

03:13 difference when it comes to wealth
03:14

03:14 preservation for sure a lot of people um
03:17

03:17 put off estate planning because there’s
03:19

03:19 just fear that talking about it is going
03:21

03:21 to make you die sooner right this Law of
03:24

03:24 Attraction idea and the good news is
03:26

03:26 I’ve done a lot of estate planning I’ve
03:28

03:28 never had anyone put an estate plan in
03:29

03:29 place and then a sudden accident happen
03:31

03:31 and I do think it gives everybody a lot
03:33

03:33 of peace of mind it’s really the
03:35

03:35 greatest gift you can give your loved
03:36

03:36 ones because without it they’re really
03:38

03:38 left with a hassle and I have a
03:41

03:41 colleague her father passed away
03:42

03:42 unexpectedly real estate investor during
03:44

03:44 the pandemic and he had nothing in place
03:47

03:47 and it became like a full-time job for
03:49

03:49 her to try to find everything it took
03:50

03:50 her two years of looking through all of
03:52

03:52 his mail and his computer files and
03:54

03:54 she’s still not sure if she has all of
03:56

03:56 her assets there’s over 500 million in
03:59

03:59 Colorado Department of unclaimed
04:01

04:01 property assets get lost when people die
04:03

04:03 because people don’t find them um
04:04

04:04 there’s billions in California I don’t
04:06

04:06 remember the latest I want to say it’s
04:07

04:07 but I know it’s in the billions that’s
04:09

04:09 in your department in California’s
04:10

04:10 Department of unclaimed property so I
04:12

04:12 always say kind of the easiest way to
04:13

04:13 get started is to just grab a sheet of
04:16

04:16 paper or a file folder and put together
04:19

04:19 all your assets in one place and tell
04:21

04:21 people where that inventory is most
04:24

04:24 people when I ask them if something were
04:25

04:25 to happen to you today would someone be
04:27

04:27 able to find what you have and where it
04:28

04:28 is the answer is no and so just taking
04:31

04:31 that simple step even if you’re not
04:32

04:32 ready to work with an estate planner yet
04:34

04:34 of just collecting everything in one
04:35

04:35 place and letting them know where it is
04:37

04:37 is going to make things much smoother
04:39

04:39 there’s a lot of synergy between what
04:40

04:40 you do and what I do just in different
04:42

04:42 fields because we are you know we try to
04:46

04:46 preserve wealth also and to grow it in a
04:48

04:48 safe way it could all collapse if it’s
04:50

04:50 done wrong a lot of people probably ask
04:53

04:53 you like well how much net worth you
04:55

04:55 have to have to start Estate Planning
04:57

04:57 and it’s almost like and I don’t know
04:59

04:59 what you think if you have a few assets
05:02

05:02 they’re easier to lose than if you have
05:04

05:04 a ton of assets so what would the answer
05:07

05:07 to that question be yeah I love that
05:09

05:09 question and I don’t subscribe to the
05:11

05:11 idea that you have to have a certain
05:13

05:13 amount of net worth to put an estate
05:14

05:14 plan I really like to explain to people
05:17

05:17 how asset protection Works how estate
05:18

05:18 planning works and what the default plan
05:21

05:21 is and you’re absolutely right like a
05:22

05:22 lot of times um the people that are
05:25

05:25 penalized the most are the people that
05:26

05:26 don’t have the money because they don’t
05:28

05:28 have the money to get themselves out of
05:30

05:30 it afterwards the family doesn’t have
05:31

05:31 the money to get themselves out of the
05:33

05:33 out of it so the default if you don’t
05:35

05:35 put an estate plan in place is that you
05:38

05:38 have a plan it’s just the state’s plan
05:40

05:40 for you and it’s going to cost a lot of
05:42

05:42 time cause a lot of conflict cost a lot
05:44

05:44 of money and a lot of assets can be lost
05:46

05:46 so I really like to explain to people
05:49

05:49 what’s going to happen in the default
05:50

05:50 and let them choose and I have some
05:52

05:52 clients who are just starting out as
05:54

05:54 Real Estate Investors and they don’t
05:55

05:55 have a lot but they have kids that are
05:57

05:57 minors and they have drug addicted fames
05:60

05:60 members that they would never want to
06:01

06:01 raise their kids that they want to
06:02

06:02 protect and they know in a default
06:04

06:04 situation that that’s what would happen
06:06

06:06 um I have other clients with you know
06:08

06:08 massive Estates over 200 million and
06:10

06:10 we’re doing really complicated estate
06:11

06:11 planning so really anyone across the
06:14

06:14 board can get an estate plan in place
06:16

06:16 it’s really about how much control you
06:17

06:17 want and what type of experience you
06:19

06:19 want for your loved ones do it yourself
06:22

06:22 EST State planning um there’s tends to
06:24

06:24 be a lot of problems and you know one of
06:27

06:27 the basic examples was this case in
06:29

06:29 Texas where
06:30

06:30 a woman owned some real estate and then
06:32

06:32 she she owned a piece of real estate and
06:34

06:34 then she owned had a retirement account
06:36

06:36 she went online and created an estate
06:38

06:38 plan she’s like I have two kids I’m
06:39

06:39 going to give my real estate to my son
06:41

06:41 and I’m going to give my daughter my
06:43

06:43 retirement account okay well she then
06:45

06:45 lived another 20 years and as you might
06:48

06:48 imagine that retirement account was
06:49

06:49 pretty close to empty and that real
06:51

06:51 estate was worth a lot and she died and
06:54

06:54 so her son inherited a really you know
06:57

06:57 really valuable piece of real estate and
06:59

06:59 her daughter inherited nothing and so
07:01

07:01 the son was like well um you know this
07:05

07:05 is what mom wanted that’s what she put
07:07

07:07 in her estate plan and the sister’s like
07:10

07:10 I don’t think Mom would have wanted that
07:11

07:11 way and so they went into litigation and
07:14

07:14 so I think yeah what you don’t know what
07:16

07:16 you don’t know and a lot of that’s a
07:17

07:17 very simple a lot of people are like my
07:19

07:19 estate is so simple I don’t need an
07:21

07:21 estate plan and that’s a really good
07:23

07:23 example of like a simple gone wrong so
07:25

07:25 yeah I would say you know most of the
07:27

07:27 time when I’m talking to clients it’s
07:28

07:28 that first they don’t really realiz that
07:30

07:30 without a plan it will go through
07:32

07:32 probate so I think that’s the first
07:33

07:33 education like if you don’t have a plan
07:35

07:35 the government has a plan for you and
07:37

07:37 you’re not going to like it and then
07:38

07:38 that next level is okay um I know I need
07:42

07:42 to get a plan in place how do I make
07:44

07:44 sure the plan’s going to work and if you
07:46

07:46 set up a trust or you set up an LLC or
07:48

07:48 you set up anything once the trust is
07:50

07:50 created you have to own everything in
07:52

07:52 the trust so you have to as a business
07:54

07:54 entities have to assign the ownership
07:56

07:56 interest into the trust upon death is
07:57

07:57 really common um in some states you can
07:59

07:59 have the trust be an owner of certain
08:01

08:01 entities but there’s some tax
08:03

08:03 ramifications so just to simplify um and
08:06

08:06 then people will create a trust online
08:09

08:09 but they don’t go and update their
08:10

08:10 beneficiaries to the trust they don’t
08:12

08:12 know that second piece right and so it’s
08:15

08:15 as if they didn’t it kind of negates the
08:17

08:17 whole purpose you just paid money for
08:20

08:20 nothing right you get what you paid for
08:22

08:22 so what risks are people not aware of
08:25

08:25 that they wouldn’t know unless they came
08:28

08:28 across trouble I represent Ed a client
08:31

08:31 who vice president of a bank really
08:34

08:34 established woman in our community and
08:36

08:36 she got assaulted sexually assaulted by
08:38

08:38 her doctor and she made the report to
08:42

08:42 the medical board she wasn’t the only
08:44

08:44 one that came forward other people came
08:45

08:45 forward um and so I represented her and
08:48

08:48 within you know a week of her making the
08:52

08:52 report the doctor had transferred his
08:55

08:55 assets so his he owned the commercial
08:58

08:58 building he owned other real estate and
09:01

09:01 he moved all of those assets within you
09:03

09:03 know a week of her making her complaint
09:05

09:05 so Colorado has what’s called a Colorado
09:08

09:08 fraudulent transfer act there’s also a
09:10

09:10 federal transfer fraudulent transfer act
09:13

09:13 and these laws throughout the states and
09:14

09:14 the different federal laws um when
09:17

09:17 someone makes a claim against you if you
09:19

09:19 start moving assets there can be a claim
09:22

09:22 that you are making a transfer that’s
09:24

09:24 fraudulent you’re essentially trying to
09:26

09:26 get rid of your assets so that this
09:28

09:28 person can’t collect from you and
09:30

09:30 there’s penalties associated with doing
09:32

09:32 that um there’s additional claims that
09:34

09:34 can be brought so in this case um I
09:38

09:38 found out about it pretty quick it was
09:39

09:39 in public record and I saw it and so
09:42

09:42 Colorado allows you to do what’s called
09:43

09:43 a prejudgment rid of attachment M so
09:46

09:46 normally we’re talking about the only
09:47

09:47 time you get people’s assets is when
09:49

09:49 you’ve actually gotten a judgment here I
09:51

09:51 am I’ve just filed my suit and I don’t
09:53

09:53 have a judgment yet but this person I
09:55

09:55 can see is clearly removing all of their
09:57

09:57 assets and so there’s a mechanism where
09:59

09:59 I can go to court which is what I did
10:01

10:01 and say to the judge this person is
10:04

10:04 moving all of their assets and we’re at
10:06

10:06 risk of not being able to collect on
10:08

10:08 this claim please freeze all of the
10:09

10:09 person’s assets this is me saying in
10:11

10:11 layman’s turns but it’s called a
10:13

10:13 prejudgment r of attachment so we filed
10:15

10:15 that the judge agreed and we able to
10:17

10:17 serve every Bank in the state of
10:18

10:18 Colorado and all of his bank accounts
10:20

10:20 the next day were frozen and we were
10:22

10:22 able to put leans on all the
10:23

10:23 properties now that was before I even
10:26

10:26 had filed a lawsuit that was when before
10:28

10:28 I so he was served with a lawsuit and um
10:32

10:32 you know the case was resolved so um and
10:35

10:35 that medical professional had good legal
10:38

10:38 help um so it’s something that a lot of
10:41

10:41 lawyers don’t know about um it’s
10:44

10:44 shocking but a lot of lawyers don’t know
10:45

10:45 about fraudulent transfer so general
10:48

10:48 rule of thumb if you have assets and a
10:51

10:51 claim has happened so the lawsuit hasn’t
10:54

10:54 doesn’t need to occur but the claim has
10:56

10:56 happened there could be an argument if
10:58

10:58 you move the assets that there’s been a
10:59

10:59 fraudulent transfer okay you have
11:01

11:01 arguments against it right if you’re
11:03

11:03 doing it for other purposes like wealth
11:04

11:04 preservation and things like that um but
11:07

11:07 it can be an uphill battle and a
11:09

11:09 plaintiff lawyer can file that suit and
11:12

11:12 get acids Frozen like I did it’s also a
11:15

11:15 separate suit where you can get
11:17

11:17 additional um damages so three a 3X
11:20

11:20 Factor wow um Colorado has one of the
11:22

11:22 hard harshest laws every State’s a
11:25

11:25 little bit different um so you really
11:27

11:27 want to once a claim has happened
11:30

11:30 it’s always like asset prote seems like
11:32

11:32 Overkill until you it’s too late and
11:35

11:35 it’s too late right fraudulent transfer
11:37

11:37 so you the bottom line is you want to
11:40

11:40 put an asset protection in estate plan
11:42

11:42 in place now before anything happens
11:44

11:44 you’re not doing it to fraudulently
11:46

11:46 evade creditors you’re doing it to
11:47

11:47 wealth preserve it would seem that
11:49

11:49 that’s also an indirect admission of
11:52

11:52 guilt I mean if there’s no real reason
11:54

11:54 to transfer right after you you know
11:56

11:56 there’s an accident or something if
11:58

11:58 you’re trying to protect ass can you
11:60

11:60 explain probate and wills and how that
12:02

12:02 plays into if somebody passes away so um
12:06

12:06 the probate process is the court process
12:08

12:08 that gets involved when you die or
12:10

12:10 become incapacitated and without any
12:12

12:12 type of estate plan in place your assets
12:15

12:15 are going to go through probate and
12:17

12:17 every state is a little bit different
12:18

12:18 about how bad of a process it is um
12:21

12:21 California is one of the most notorious
12:23

12:23 ones that has a lot of challenges oh
12:25

12:25 really know um so Colorado we’ve um
12:30

12:30 created some systems in place we under
12:32

12:32 the uniform trust act state so we’ made
12:34

12:34 some improvements but in most states in
12:37

12:37 the country it’s going to cost between 5
12:40

12:40 to 9% of your estate if it goes through
12:42

12:42 probate which can be a massive six
12:44

12:44 figure or seven figure even higher
12:46

12:46 number for um most of my real estate
12:48

12:48 investor clients and it’s going to take
12:50

12:50 on average of 9 months to two years
12:52

12:52 assets can be lost it’s going to take a
12:54

12:54 lot of time it’s going to cause a lot of
12:56

12:56 conflict um so Wills go through probate
12:59

12:59 because you are leaving instructions to
13:01

13:01 a judge so how I describe it is right
13:04

13:04 now you own all your assets in your name
13:06

13:06 or in your business names and when you
13:08

13:08 die that transfer is going to be made by
13:10

13:10 a judge they’re going to make those
13:11

13:11 transfers for you okay the reason a
13:13

13:13 trust avoids probate is you make that
13:16

13:16 transfer in life so there’s lots of
13:19

13:19 different types of trust one of the
13:20

13:20 found most foundational things for an
13:21

13:21 estate planet is a revocable living
13:23

13:23 trust meaning fully changeable you have
13:25

13:25 full control can do everything that you
13:27

13:27 can normally do in your own name but you
13:29

13:29 make that transfer in life and that’s
13:31

13:31 how it avoids probate and that’s how you
13:33

13:33 can also put in place additional asset
13:35

13:35 protection tax savings other types of
13:37

13:37 strategies that are more advanced to
13:39

13:39 protect those assets let’s say you pass
13:41

13:41 away and your kids inherit something
13:43

13:43 estate tax you know you hear all about
13:45

13:45 these taxes or these assets that people
13:47

13:47 inherit and then they have to pay a
13:49

13:49 certain percentage of the asset um how
13:51

13:51 does that work versus you know
13:54

13:54 irrevocable versus revocable trust yeah
13:57

13:57 so okay big picture kind of
13:59

13:59 one of the disadvantages of not having
14:01

14:01 an estate plan in place when you have
14:03

14:03 minor children or adult children is that
14:05

14:05 everything’s going to go outright
14:07

14:07 unprotected to your kids at age 18 and
14:10

14:10 most of us don’t make the best decisions
14:12

14:12 at age 18 right um if you have no plan
14:14

14:14 in place it’s going to go through
14:15

14:15 probate so it’s going to the
14:16

14:16 government’s going to take a lot of
14:18

14:18 money some states have a state estate
14:20

14:20 tax and every state has a federal estate
14:22

14:22 tax so here in Colorado we only have the
14:25

14:25 federal we don’t have a state estate tax
14:27

14:27 um so federally the estate tax is 40% so
14:31

14:31 that’s the tax when you die however the
14:33

14:33 government allows you to leave a certain
14:34

14:34 amount without having to pay that and
14:36

14:36 that’s what you call the freeb amount
14:37

14:37 right um back in the early ’90s the
14:39

14:39 freeb amount was 600,000 anything over
14:42

14:42 600,000 was taxed at 40% when you died
14:44

14:44 wow early 2000s that went up to a
14:46

14:46 million late 2000s that went up to 2
14:49

14:49 million and then we shot up to 11
14:51

14:51 million and with inflation we’re at 12
14:53

14:53 million today so now is a good time to
14:54

14:54 die from the state tax standpoint
14:57

14:57 because you can pass on $12 million
14:58

14:58 without that tax okay but that’s if it’s
15:00

15:00 in your personal name not a trust or
15:03

15:03 that’s either or either or um and
15:06

15:06 there’s some nuances so the reason I
15:08

15:08 went through that mini history lesson is
15:10

15:10 you’re going to live a long healthy life
15:11

15:11 most of your most of the listeners will
15:13

15:13 as well we don’t know what the state tax
15:15

15:15 is going to be when anyone passes away
15:17

15:17 so right now when the 11 million went
15:19

15:19 through it had a sunset Clause to go
15:21

15:21 back down to 5 million in 2025 right so
15:24

15:24 any listeners that are at that 5 million
15:26

15:26 to 6 million now is when you want to be
15:28

15:28 doing planning because in by 2025 if you
15:31

15:31 were to pass away anything over that is
15:33

15:33 going to be taxed at 40% now with trust
15:36

15:36 you can do some planning if you’re
15:38

15:38 married you can double your state tax
15:40

15:40 exemption so that double that coupon um
15:43

15:43 when the first of you passes if you
15:44

15:44 structure it right with trusts and then
15:47

15:47 for my higher net worth you can also use
15:49

15:49 what’s called irrevocable trusts to move
15:51

15:51 some of your assets to minimize your
15:53

15:53 exposure to that 40% there’s some
15:55

15:55 trade-offs right any the difference
15:57

15:57 between revocable and irrevocable
15:59

15:59 revocable is you can change it you can
16:00

16:00 fully control it irrevocable is
16:02

16:02 non-changeable you can’t change it you
16:04

16:04 can’t control it okay so everybody on a
16:08

16:08 foundationally foundational level you
16:10

16:10 always need a revocable living trust you
16:11

16:11 some of your money you want control of
16:13

16:13 on a foundational level from an advanced
16:16

16:16 planning so my clients who are higher
16:17

16:17 net worth who are concerned around asset
16:19

16:19 protection or estate tax then they add
16:22

16:22 additional layers of irrevocable trust
16:24

16:24 which are non-changeable trusts so that
16:26

16:26 they can reduce their estate tax
16:28

16:28 exemption um but there are some
16:30

16:30 downsides to that you don’t want to put
16:31

16:31 all of your assets in an irrevocable
16:33

16:33 trust because you’re essentially not
16:34

16:34 able to control your money right so the
16:36

16:36 government doesn’t give you the best of
16:37

16:37 both worlds you can’t not pay taxes and
16:39

16:39 control your money so um there’s a
16:41

16:41 little bit of moving things around for
16:43

16:43 that how do you uh I mean one thing I
16:46

16:46 maybe I’m wrong but irrevocable you it
16:49

16:49 has its own Ein does revocable also have
16:51

16:51 its own Ein yeah that’s a great question
16:52

16:52 so irrevocable has its own revocable
16:55

16:55 it’s your social security number while
16:57

16:57 you’re alive while you’re alive it’s
16:59

16:59 your soul security so it doesn’t have a
17:00

17:00 separate and then when you die it would
17:02

17:02 pass on how into an irrevocable I feel
17:05

17:05 like the nature of that makes it a
17:07

17:07 totally different animal because now
17:09

17:09 you’re creating an entity and legally it
17:12

17:12 really it can survive in definitely but
17:16

17:16 and you don’t have to pay taxes because
17:17

17:17 you’re not really passing it from person
17:19

17:19 to person there are taxes that get paid
17:21

17:21 so the trust will pay taxes it just has
17:23

17:23 to be part of the strategy of what taxes
17:26

17:26 are you paying when and what so it’s not
17:29

17:29 you can’t move all of your things into
17:31

17:31 an irrevocable trust and no taxes are
17:33

17:33 paid right because the trust is tax that
17:36

17:36 it’s trust rate right you’re just not
17:38

17:38 depending on how you structure it you
17:40

17:40 can minimize the state tax at the death
17:42

17:42 so it’s not it’s not a on siiz fits all
17:45

17:45 and it’s like usually these are bigger
17:48

17:48 so I always recommend people get their
17:49

17:49 foundational plan in place first and get
17:51

17:51 their living trust get their powers of
17:53

17:53 attorney get their medical choices get
17:55

17:55 all of that protected if they have minor
17:56

17:56 children get their guardianship all that
17:59

17:59 and then the second layer is when we’re
18:00

18:00 trying to talk about tax issues we’re
18:03

18:03 doing a second level of planning and
18:04

18:04 it’s a lot of Shifting things around and
18:06

18:06 making decisions based on the growth of
18:08

18:08 your portfolio where you’re trying to
18:10

18:10 bring money and it’s going to kind of
18:11

18:11 continue to change throughout your life
18:13

18:13 I think it’s so interesting what you do
18:15

18:15 because hearing you talk it’s really
18:16

18:16 like a very whole uh holistic approach
18:20

18:20 you can’t you can’t talk about llc’s
18:22

18:22 without talking about Estates and wills
18:24

18:24 and insurance it all kind of plays the
18:26

18:26 part of the plan how do you deal with
18:28

18:28 families that have have you know a kid
18:30

18:30 that’s a rebel or a kid that went to MBA
18:33

18:33 and has education and could take over a
18:34

18:34 business do you tell them you know the
18:37

18:37 kids what the future plans are without
18:39

18:39 sabotaging the relationship uh how would
18:42

18:42 you advise your clients in those kinds
18:44

18:44 of situations yeah so I have a lot of
18:46

18:46 clients who come to me who have those
18:48

18:48 Dynamics where they have children that
18:51

18:51 have different challenges or aren’t
18:53

18:53 quite ready to manage the money and
18:55

18:55 usually it’s a conversation about kind
18:57

18:57 of your family specific dynamic goals
18:59

18:59 okay so you can um put someone in charge
19:02

19:02 of the money for your child whether
19:04

19:04 they’re adult or a child right so if you
19:07

19:07 want to completely remove all control
19:09

19:09 from like there’s no trust there we
19:11

19:11 don’t think that other persons we can do
19:13

19:13 that um a lot of times that’s kind of a
19:15

19:15 last resort right because that can cause
19:17

19:17 a lot of conflict and challenges down
19:19

19:19 the road um a lot of times we bring in
19:21

19:21 kind of a professional to be a
19:23

19:23 co-trustee so you can bring in a private
19:25

19:25 or another family member to be
19:28

19:28 co-trustee help manage and train and
19:30

19:30 help educate all of that
19:32

19:32 okay yeah what’s interesting to me about
19:35

19:35 contract because in a way it is a
19:37

19:37 contract um is you could get so creative
19:40

19:40 with it you know I think that you can
19:42

19:42 give certain stipulations or conditional
19:45

19:45 things that have to happen in the
19:47

19:47 benefit or in the future trustees life
19:50

19:50 like age certain education maybe certain
19:53

19:53 experience in order for them to earn the
19:55

19:55 right to control certain things yeah I
19:57

19:57 mean you can get you can really control
19:59

19:59 things from the grave or um or you can
20:01

20:01 be a little bit more um relaxed I was
20:05

20:05 kind of um looking at some different
20:07

20:07 statistics around wealth transfer
20:09

20:09 between families and they’ve done a lot
20:11

20:11 of surveys and the more you can educate
20:13

20:13 your children even from a young age on
20:16

20:16 things like financial and real estate
20:19

20:19 from a very young age the better chance
20:21

20:21 they are yeah um at being able to kind
20:23

20:23 of preserve that Legacy it’s funny
20:26

20:26 that’s I mean that’s why I have this
20:27

20:27 show because I mean you don’t learn so
20:29

20:29 many things about generational wealth
20:31

20:31 preservation one thing that I wanted to
20:33

20:33 say that I wrote in my notes it’s
20:36

20:36 similar wealth preservation tactics it’s
20:38

20:38 one thing to make money it’s another
20:39

20:39 thing to keep it and that’s the issue
20:41

20:41 you know not that it’s easy to make
20:43

20:43 money sometimes that’s the saying it’s
20:45

20:45 easy it’s hard to keep it easy to make
20:47

20:47 it hard to keep it but it’s hard in both
20:49

20:49 ways and things are constantly changing
20:52

20:52 year after year I was watching some
20:54

20:54 video on the state planning new rules
20:58

20:58 this year what are the trends going
20:60

20:60 forward and how do you you know hedge
21:02

21:02 yourself to protect against them one of
21:04

21:04 the things I tell my clients you know I
21:06

21:06 feel like a lot of clients who come for
21:08

21:08 estate planning have a similar mindset
21:10

21:10 as me right you know you tend to be kind
21:12

21:12 of more controlling people or planners
21:15

21:15 it’s called an estate plan for a reason
21:16

21:16 right so one of the things I love about
21:18

21:18 estate planning is it’s one of those
21:20

21:20 things especially during kind of these
21:21

21:21 Economic Times that you can control the
21:23

21:23 controllable and it gives people a lot
21:25

21:25 of Peace of Mind to put those things in
21:27

21:27 place right but we can only control so
21:29

21:29 much you know I don’t know what’s going
21:30

21:30 to happen in the future um you know back
21:33

21:33 in November of last year there was a
21:35

21:35 proposal to completely get rid of
21:37

21:37 irrevocable trust um so everyone was
21:40

21:40 really panicking at that time um the
21:42

21:42 state tax changes um you know there was
21:45

21:45 a proposal to bring it down instead of
21:47

21:47 in 2025 and 2022 and our office was
21:50

21:50 called you know people were calling us
21:52

21:52 constantly trying to figure it out um so
21:54

21:54 I always like to stay in touch with my
21:56

21:56 clients so we do with all of our clients
21:58

21:58 we’re doing check-ins regularly with
21:60

21:60 them letting them know about any changes
22:02

22:02 in the law um right now um you know
22:06

22:06 there’s a you know a lot of speculation
22:08

22:08 of where we’re going to go potentially
22:09

22:09 with the state taxes and irrevocable
22:10

22:10 trust I think you know I don’t have a
22:13

22:13 crystal ball so I can’t tell you when
22:15

22:15 it’s going to change but I do think
22:16

22:16 people are expecting it to go down it’s
22:18

22:18 already going to go down in 2025 but
22:20

22:20 we’ll see you’re saying go down in terms
22:22

22:22 of the taxable the freebie part of it
22:25

22:25 the freebie the exemption okay
22:28

22:28 percentage always changes so it’s not
22:30

22:30 always at 40% so okay I mean it’s got to
22:33

22:33 be really nice to be you because you
22:35

22:35 have all these families that UST you for
22:37

22:37 their future it’s a very intimate
22:39

22:39 relationship what do you love the most
22:41

22:41 about your role and and you know it’s
22:44

22:44 not a job but what what’s your passion
22:47

22:47 in it yeah I think you know from the
22:49

22:49 beginning I was telling you my passion
22:51

22:51 was you know going through everything
22:53

22:53 with my family and kind of helping
22:55

22:55 people um I really like that moment like
22:58

22:58 I was mentioning of you know right now
23:01

23:01 especially with the pandemic and kind of
23:03

23:03 coming out of it and you know going into
23:05

23:05 a recession people are a little bit on
23:07

23:07 edge and it’s that one thing that they
23:10

23:10 can put a plan in place and feel good
23:11

23:11 about um I have spent a lot of time in
23:14

23:14 litigation my background was in
23:15

23:15 litigation so um I spent a lot of time
23:18

23:18 in conflict and and battle and so I like
23:21

23:21 to bring those solutions to my clients
23:24

23:24 to help them plan in a better way and
23:26

23:26 yeah I just really enjoy that moment
23:28

23:28 when people know that they’ve been
23:30

23:30 putting it off for a really long time
23:31

23:31 yeah and they finally get it done and
23:33

23:33 they you know I have clients that email
23:35

23:35 me and text me that they’re I’m the
23:37

23:37 first person they think about when they
23:38

23:38 get on a flight because they feel so
23:41

23:41 relieved that they know that if
23:42

23:42 something were to happen their kids and
23:44

23:44 their parents are going to be taken care
23:45

23:45 of and their um their spouse and so it
23:49

23:49 feels really good to know that they have
23:51

23:51 that peace of mind wherever they’re
23:52

23:52 going well I think that what you said I
23:55

23:55 think it’s so interesting having someone
23:57

23:57 who does the creating of the estate of
23:60

23:60 the llc’s and that whole ecosystem when
24:03

24:03 you have experience in litigation you
24:05

24:05 have experience piercing corporate veils
24:07

24:07 can you explain what that means to have
24:09

24:09 you know to pierce a corporate veil and
24:12

24:12 how to keep a you know a company or an
24:15

24:15 State strong in a position without you
24:17

24:17 know vulnerabilities to
24:20

24:20 litigation yeah so the concept of
24:22

24:22 piercing the corporate veil is you set
24:24

24:24 up an entity so if you’re a real estate
24:26

24:26 investor and you create an LLC to hold a
24:30

24:30 limited liability company to hold one of
24:31

24:31 your properties um the idea is is that
24:34

24:34 entity separate from you or can they
24:37

24:37 pierce the corporate veil and get into
24:38

24:38 your personal assets and so there’s
24:40

24:40 certain things it’s a multiactor test
24:42

24:42 and it’s set by state so here in
24:44

24:44 Colorado there’s multifactors depending
24:47

24:47 on where you have the LLC it can be
24:48

24:48 different but they’re generally the same
24:49

24:49 in most parts of the country um you want
24:51

24:51 to make sure you’re not co-mingling
24:53

24:53 assets so that’s kind of the number one
24:55

24:55 mistake I see Real Estate Investors
24:57

24:57 doing is they go and set up an LLC on
24:59

24:59 Legal Zoom um to hold some assets and
25:02

25:02 then they’re using that bank account for
25:04

25:04 the LLC for their personal and they’re
25:07

25:07 moving things in and out and they’re not
25:08

25:08 really treating it like a business right
25:10

25:10 and so then you’re not going to have
25:12

25:12 that protection if there’s a lawsuit
25:14

25:14 against you so I represented a client
25:17

25:17 who was um shot at a nightclub and um he
25:21

25:21 was just an innocent bystander he was
25:23

25:23 there with some friends and there was a
25:24

25:24 shooting and he got shot with some
25:27

25:27 random Fire and we sued the restaurant
25:30

25:30 and bar and the owners of the restaurant
25:33

25:33 and bar Were Real Estate Investors and
25:35

25:35 they owned a lot of commercial space and
25:36

25:36 other places um and they had everything
25:39

25:39 comingled so they weren’t really
25:41

25:41 treating everything as businesses they
25:43

25:43 had you know these entities that they
25:45

25:45 set up but they were really running all
25:47

25:47 the cash through one entity so my
25:50

25:50 deposition of the business owners was
25:52

25:52 going through to establish that they had
25:54

25:54 pierced the corporate veil and I could
25:55

25:55 get into their other assets and the
25:57

25:57 assets outside of just that bar where it
25:60

25:60 happened and so it’s things like are
26:02

26:02 they keeping those corporate formalities
26:04

26:04 are they doing their meeting minutes are
26:06

26:06 they uh making sure that they’re not
26:07

26:07 moving things in and out between the
26:09

26:09 business without following proper um
26:12

26:12 laws around that so just making sure
26:14

26:14 that you’re treating it like a business
26:15

26:15 and that you’re keeping those
26:17

26:17 maintaining
26:18

26:18 everything yeah I mean the way we do
26:21

26:21 everything every property has its own
26:22

26:22 LLC you know you have different
26:24

26:24 accountant for not different account but
26:26

26:26 different files for everyone and things
26:28

26:28 like that but when it comes to it’s it’s
26:31

26:31 the liability of it all let’s say you’re
26:33

26:33 a house flipper and you have you know
26:35

26:35 three houses every three years or
26:37

26:37 whatever and you just flip them do you
26:38

26:38 need to get a new LLC for every one yeah
26:41

26:41 typically people like if you’re keeping
26:43

26:43 it for a I mean obviously this is legal
26:45

26:45 education not leg so you’re you’re going
26:47

26:47 to want to kind of chat with your
26:49

26:49 specific attorney but um a lot of times
26:51

26:51 people will have like one entity that
26:53

26:53 they’re flipping things in and out of so
26:55

26:55 it’s almost like you’re running it as
26:57

26:57 like a construction type company or a
26:59

26:59 property management type company and
27:01

27:01 you’re running those types of contracts
27:02

27:02 out of that and then you’re keeping the
27:05

27:05 um actual property in a different LLC
27:07

27:07 but normally if it’s really quick flips
27:09

27:09 people aren’t putting them in their own
27:11

27:11 LLC it just kind of depends on the
27:12

27:12 nature of what you’re doing okay yeah
27:15

27:15 I’ve always wondered about that because
27:16

27:16 it’s shortterm and you never know what
27:19

27:19 you need to uh like you don’t want to
27:22

27:22 underdo your exposure you know your
27:24

27:24 legal exposure yeah and so I always say
27:27

27:27 I don’t sell insurance but the first
27:28

27:28 line of defense is always good insurance
27:31

27:31 and I worked um in the litigation side
27:34

27:34 so my background is actually as a civil
27:35

27:35 engineer and so I worked um doing some
27:38

27:38 construction um defect litigation so um
27:41

27:41 as a lawyer so I did I represented um
27:44

27:44 subcontractors that were sued I
27:46

27:46 represented developers and then I moved
27:48

27:48 over to the plan of side and worked on
27:50

27:50 the Su suing side so I’ve done both
27:51

27:51 sides and the number one mistake I see
27:54

27:54 people making is they don’t have good
27:55

27:55 insurance so they think when I was on
27:58

27:58 when I worked for insurance companies
27:59

27:59 when I worked for developers and then
28:00

28:00 when I also worked on the plaintiff side
28:03

28:03 so I would say work with a good
28:05

28:05 insurance broker that um I prefer
28:08

28:08 Insurance Brokers that have the ability
28:11

28:11 that aren’t captive that have the
28:12

28:12 ability to provide insurance from
28:14

28:14 multiple different providers and then
28:17

28:17 work with someone that knows your
28:19

28:19 specific risks of your business and make
28:21

28:21 sure that they’re including everything
28:24

28:24 in there um so for like the newer
28:26

28:26 investors I see a lot of times you know
28:28

28:28 they’re cutting cost they go online they
28:30

28:30 buy in a policy and they don’t realize
28:32

28:32 the policy doesn’t cover the things that
28:34

28:34 are you’re most likely sued for here in
28:35

28:35 Colorado which in Colorado unlike
28:37

28:37 California we get a lot of slip and
28:39

28:39 falls with snow and ice I know that’s
28:41

28:41 not
28:41

28:41 something you have to deal with think
28:44

28:44 California but um you know I see people
28:47

28:47 cut corners and not get policies that
28:49

28:49 cover that or you know tenants um here
28:52

28:52 it’s a major problem of you know we’re a
28:53

28:53 big dog loving State and so if you have
28:56

28:56 a dangerous if you’re tenant has a
28:58

28:58 dangerous dog that bites someone and you
29:00

29:00 um knew about it and you still rent it
29:02

29:02 to them you will be sued as the owner
29:05

29:05 and you you want to make sure you have
29:06

29:06 coverage for that so I am one of those
29:09

29:09 few people that prints out the full
29:11

29:11 insurance policy and goes to the
29:12

29:12 exclusion page and goes through with an
29:14

29:14 insurance broker hey is there coverage I
29:16

29:16 can buy for that is there coverage I can
29:18

29:18 buy for that and usually it’s not that
29:20

29:20 much more expensive to buy that coverage
29:22

29:22 yeah um making sure you have those
29:23

29:23 umbrella policies but like I said I have
29:25

29:25 a lot of people who are like oh I’m
29:27

29:27 covered I have an umbrella policy and
29:29

29:29 then they don’t realize that that
29:30

29:30 umbrella policy has an exclusion for
29:33

29:33 everything they’re worried about right
29:35

29:35 yeah I mean one thing in California that
29:37

29:37 you do get all the time is earthquake
29:39

29:39 insurance and it’s not it’s not
29:41

29:41 inexpensive it’s probably the same as
29:43

29:43 the general liability and excess but you
29:46

29:46 know you never know you have an
29:46

29:46 earthquake and your building falls one
29:48

29:48 of our buildings is it’s 100 years old
29:51

29:51 you know it’s like it’s made poured in
29:54

29:54 place concrete it’s got structural
29:56

29:56 cracks in it so it is something to think
29:59

29:59 about here we have wildfires I know
30:00

30:00 California have wildfires too yeah yeah
30:03

30:03 different states different laws
30:05

30:05 different Assets in different states how
30:07

30:07 how do you deal with that what’s the
30:09

30:09 best way to deal with having that
30:11

30:11 organized so that you don’t have to go
30:13

30:13 to probate and each state or so that
30:15

30:15 what’s the best strategy when you have
30:17

30:17 Assets in different states I guess yeah
30:19

30:19 that’s a great question so without a
30:20

30:20 plan you’re absolutely right if you have
30:22

30:22 assets in multiple States and you die
30:24

30:24 without a plan your loved ones are going
30:25

30:25 to have to go through probate in each
30:27

30:27 state
30:28

30:28 which means an increased filing fees
30:30

30:30 increased legal fees increased time it’s
30:33

30:33 going to be a complete nightmare um for
30:35

30:35 a lot of your level ones to have to go
30:36

30:36 through that your kids have to go
30:37

30:37 through the cost the time and a lot of
30:39

30:39 assets get lost so typically you want to
30:42

30:42 set up your estate plan in the state
30:43

30:43 that you reside in that you have your
30:45

30:45 residency um and then you can hold real
30:49

30:49 estate for all of your properties across
30:51

30:51 the US in that and then when it comes to
30:53

30:53 foreign assets so for a us-based trust
30:56

30:56 you can hold assets for all of your
30:58

30:58 assets in that trust when it comes to
31:00

31:00 foreign assets you’re going to want to
31:02

31:02 put those in a foreign estate plan you
31:03

31:03 don’t want to move any foreign assets
31:05

31:05 into your us trust because then it
31:07

31:07 increases your tax rate and all that
31:09

31:09 stuff so you don’t want to do that you
31:11

31:11 talked about at some point or I heard
31:13

31:13 about
31:14

31:14 um charging order protections at certain
31:17

31:17 States is holding companies so what’s
31:20

31:20 that mean when you know you have one
31:22

31:22 company in another state that is the
31:25

31:25 sort of the organization or parent
31:27

31:27 organization or something of all your
31:29

31:29 llc’s what’s the benefits to doing that
31:31

31:31 yeah so charging order protection is can
31:34

31:34 they force you to sell your assets if
31:36

31:36 there’s a judgment so if someone comes
31:39

31:39 against you and sues you and they get a
31:40

31:40 judgment against you so it goes to trial
31:43

31:43 and there’s a verdict against you for
31:44

31:44 some amount of money can they now force
31:47

31:47 you to sell assets to pay that and in
31:50

31:50 certain States they can’t so Wyoming is
31:53

31:53 one state that has charging order
31:55

31:55 protection so um
31:58

31:58 and that’s just one PRI Wyoming has a
32:00

32:00 lot of privacy protection that Colorado
32:03

32:03 doesn’t have as well as far as who owns
32:05

32:05 llc’s and those types of things so um a
32:08

32:08 lot of my clients who own multi-state
32:10

32:10 properties um will look at having a
32:12

32:12 holding company in a state that has more
32:14

32:14 favorable laws and normally it’s a
32:16

32:16 conversation both of the what are your
32:18

32:18 long-term goals and what are the tax
32:21

32:21 implications of moving everything under
32:24

32:24 an LLC in that ENT in that state um so
32:27

32:27 it’s not kind of a one-sized FID all I
32:28

32:28 don’t think you know you should always
32:30

32:30 do Wyoming um South Dakota is very
32:32

32:32 popular right now Delaware is very
32:34

32:34 popular right now Nevada is sometimes
32:36

32:36 popular sometimes not because there’s
32:37

32:37 some right thoughts about some changes
32:39

32:39 in politics in Nevada that might change
32:41

32:41 things okay um but a lot of times when
32:44

32:44 you hear that that’s why and a a lot of
32:46

32:46 times I have clients who you know are
32:48

32:48 here in Colorado and they only have a
32:50

32:50 few properties and you know they don’t
32:54

32:54 you know Mom and Pops you know they’re
32:56

32:56 retiring you know they’re not planning
32:58

32:58 to build a massive portfolio for them
33:01

33:01 having a holding company in Wyoming
33:04

33:04 doesn’t really make a lot of sense but
33:05

33:05 they go and watch a YouTube video and
33:06

33:06 they think they need to do it and I’m
33:08

33:08 like you know you’re better use that
33:10

33:10 money I’m happy to create it for you but
33:12

33:12 use that money to get better Insurance
33:14

33:14 because you’re really not going to come
33:16

33:16 against the types of risk that’s the
33:18

33:18 juice isn’t worth the squeeze there
33:19

33:19 right but um you know for clients who
33:22

33:22 have properties in multiple States um
33:24

33:24 you know thinking through that what
33:26

33:26 their goals are and making sure that you
33:28

33:28 choose a forum that’s going to give you
33:29

33:29 the best protection you need to plan
33:31

33:31 properly and it’s different for
33:32

33:32 everybody uh one question I had
33:35

33:35 personally too what are the requirements
33:38

33:38 of not getting your you know corporate
33:41

33:41 veil pierced you know I know you have to
33:43

33:43 keep minutes you have to file with the
33:45

33:45 SOS you know pay the you know annual
33:48

33:48 fees or and that stuff is there anything
33:50

33:50 else that yeah so it’s a multiactor test
33:53

33:53 it’s not um and it’s set by state and
33:55

33:55 it’s the things that we’ve talked about
33:57

33:57 so it depends what state you have it in
33:58

33:58 but yeah you got to keep your corporate
33:60

33:60 formalities and you can’t you have to be
34:02

34:02 operating as a separate entity you can’t
34:04

34:04 have it just be you right and so and
34:07

34:07 then it’s going to be dependent on the
34:08

34:08 case law and the state that you’re in as
34:09

34:09 well okay but those are similar things
34:11

34:11 like not comingling assets um keeping
34:15

34:15 things separate keeping the corporate
34:17

34:17 formalities whether it’s the minutes or
34:19

34:19 if you have a corporation you’re going
34:21

34:21 to have to have your bylaws if you’re of
34:22

34:22 an LLC you’re going to have to have your
34:24

34:24 operating agreement those are kind of
34:26

34:26 get the getting you started type things
34:27

34:27 to make
34:28

34:28 sure okay and I mean going back a little
34:31

34:31 bit to the piercing of the uh or the
34:33

34:33 holding company and the charging orders
34:35

34:35 I don’t know if it was clear about how
34:38

34:38 it’s one LLC or individual is owned by
34:42

34:42 that holding company and then they’re
34:44

34:44 protected from the liabilities of
34:46

34:46 another certain liabilities is there
34:48

34:48 different types of liabilities you know
34:51

34:51 property personal you know
34:54

34:54 injury yeah so with real estate I i’
34:57

34:57 like to talk about you know there’s two
34:58

34:58 different types of liability in general
35:00

35:00 when we’re talking about asset
35:01

35:01 protection there’s inside liability and
35:03

35:03 then there’s outside liability inside
35:05

35:05 liability is inside liability related to
35:08

35:08 the real estate so someone can slip and
35:10

35:10 fall on your property and sue you
35:12

35:12 someone can’t slip and fall in your
35:13

35:13 brokerage account right so um so you
35:16

35:16 have certain assets that have liability
35:18

35:18 just based on the type of asset um and
35:20

35:20 then you have other types of assets that
35:22

35:22 don’t have any type of liability and so
35:24

35:24 we’re concerned about hey where is the
35:26

35:26 potential for or um liability inside
35:30

35:30 because of the nature of this and then
35:32

35:32 if I get sued for something unrelated so
35:34

35:34 I have a business partner dispute can
35:36

35:36 they get into certain assets okay well I
35:38

35:38 mean you’re super busy and successful
35:41

35:41 and you know everybody in the community
35:42

35:42 respects you it’s it’s it’s always been
35:44

35:44 a pleasure to meet you what are your
35:46

35:46 daily habits to make you so happy and
35:49

35:49 successful and well balanced in life
35:51

35:51 yeah well that’s very kind of you I
35:53

35:53 think um one of my mentors taught me the
35:57

35:57 value of time blocking MH and it’s a
36:00

36:00 little hard to get used to at first but
36:03

36:03 um I’m really regimented with that so
36:07

36:07 are have you done time blocking are you
36:08

36:08 familiar with it um so it’s really like
36:11

36:11 my calendar is pretty regimented as far
36:14

36:14 as um these are the blocks of times I’m
36:16

36:16 going to be doing certain activities and
36:18

36:18 if something doesn’t fall into that then
36:20

36:20 I don’t do the activities um but on a
36:23

36:23 bigger level of someone I mean there’s
36:25

36:25 some really good podcast episodes about
36:26

36:26 it but kind of bigger level um sitting
36:29

36:29 down and writing a list of your
36:30

36:30 priorities so for me my priorities are
36:33

36:33 every day I want to spend time with my
36:35

36:35 daughter well what does that actually
36:36

36:36 mean and a lot of times as entrepreneurs
36:38

36:38 as business owners we push our family
36:42

36:42 and our um ourselves to the last and we
36:46

36:46 get like the the very last scraps and
36:49

36:49 it’s not usually good so the idea is to
36:52

36:52 flip that so for me um for me that’s you
36:54

36:54 know an hour at the end of the day and
36:57

36:57 an hour in the morning and so it’s
36:58

36:58 blocked in my calendar so before I do
37:00

37:00 any other action items in the week or
37:02

37:02 before I do it like I’ve blocked out my
37:05

37:05 calendar with my time with my family I
37:08

37:08 exercise every day so my workout time
37:10

37:10 all of that is time pled and it’s
37:11

37:11 non-negotiable I don’t let anything else
37:13

37:13 get in the way of that and then going
37:16

37:16 through and looking at my business and
37:17

37:17 seeing what’s the highest and best use
37:18

37:18 of my time and making sure those
37:21

37:21 activities are blocked in my calendar
37:22

37:22 and then you have to give a little bit
37:24

37:24 of Windows for other things but the idea
37:25

37:25 is it feels like really controlling but
37:28

37:28 actually gives you a lot more free time
37:29

37:29 and freedom when you um when I first
37:32

37:32 started doing this practice they had me
37:34

37:34 go through and you know write down how I
37:36

37:36 spend my whole day and you start to
37:38

37:38 realize how much time wasting you have
37:41

37:41 like how much time you spend on
37:43

37:43 Instagram or Facebook or how much time
37:45

37:45 you spend doing things that you
37:46

37:46 shouldn’t be doing or when people come
37:48

37:48 to you with a task to do I now have my
37:51

37:51 five priorities and I’m like is this
37:53

37:53 something that is in my priorities or
37:56

37:56 not um and then saying no I think as a
37:59

37:59 woman in our culture I think you know
38:02

38:02 especially as a business owner now I’ve
38:04

38:04 really had to train myself to say no
38:06

38:06 yeah to a lot of different stuff and I
38:08

38:08 think you know it feels rude sometimes
38:11

38:11 but um that’s been the other biggest
38:14

38:14 success tip is saying no saying no to
38:16

38:16 things that don’t move my business
38:18

38:18 forward that don’t make me happy so well
38:21

38:21 thanks for coming on the podcast and uh
38:24

38:24 got to take you and your husband out to
38:25

38:25 dinner I’d love to meet
38:27

38:27 hey guys if you like this video and the
38:29

38:29 content on my channel I have a
38:30

38:30 newsletter that goes out about once a
38:32

38:32 month come to my website signant
38:34

38:34 investments.com s NE investments.com

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